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The title implies that Italy would have done better with a different prime minister, but I have no reason to believe this would be the case. Lots of European ec

by Jd 15y ago

The title implies that Italy would have done better with a different prime minister, but I have no reason to believe this would be the case. Lots of European economies have done worse and Italians are, well, Italians.

diego_moita 15y ago
> Lots of European economies have done worse I think the article already addresses that. It stresses that "Italy’s economic illness is not the acute sort, but a chronic disease that slowly gnaws away at vitality". Spain, Ireland and Portugal might be in worse shape but they might be coming to understand that they need a tough treatment; Italy doesn't. The PIGS are at shock; Italy is just dazed at stupor. > Italians are, well, Italians :^) OK, you won.
acangiano 15y ago
> Italians are, well, Italians Care to elaborate on this? "Blacks are, well, blacks" would sound racist. I'm not sure this highly upvoted comment of yours is much nobler in spirit.
- Jd 15y ago
  "Racism" is a somewhat vague term for which I believe the current usage is primarily born out of the American civil rights movement. Europeans on the other hand have been comfortable with labeling various national characteristics for centuries -- various national characteristics that are undoubtedly true. These come in negative, positive, and contested categories. For instance, the British are known for their "stiff upper lip," Germans (traditionally, not contemporarily) for their warlike sentiment, etc. In America we have the sense that these things are mutable, and this is partially true, but it is unreasonable to expect people to change overnight, and it is especially unreasonable to expect that some external force (e.g. purely economic forces) will produce the massive changes that might be perceived as necessary for a society to adapt to modernity as the Economist writers perceive as necessary and laudable. In any case, I think it is unacceptable to focus only on the negative aspects of a people. "Blacks are, well, blacks" would generally be racist since virtually no one would use that in a positive sense. Italians often self-perceive that their resistance to the way things are done in a capitalist world is based on some inner nobility -- and although I generally disagree, I think there is still a grain of truth there. Besides, Italians are among the most openly racist peoples in Europe -- people from Northern Italy are even comfortable calling Southern Italy part of Africa (not meant in a positive sense!).
  - lyudmil 15y ago
    I've been living in Italy for two years now and I have to say I don't see this resistance to the capitalist world you assert they have. In the North, where I live, the economy is large and lively, people are rich, and they work hard. There is, of course, a palpable difference between the way of life here and in Northern Europe, but it isn't as big as I think most people expect (the food and coffee are better). It feels very similar to a typical European capitalist economy. Of course, that's only half of the story. Southern Italy, despite it's idyllic landscapes and hedonism, has some serious economic, demographic, and social problems and they don't deny it. I have never felt they wore it as a badge of honor to signify some inner nobility, as you posit. Most Italians I've talked to want to solve these problems and believe they're actively working to do it. They don't feel the fact that they enjoy a good quality of life impedes their ability to develop a strong economy - they think the best of both worlds is possible.
    - Jd 15y ago
      Granted, I am conflating Northern and Southern Italy and most of my knowledge of both is from Italian expatriates who have deliberately left Italy to work in other countries due to dissatisfaction with the conditions there. As for "They don't feel the fact that they enjoy a good quality of life impedes their ability to develop a strong economy," they could simply be wrong. Certain aspects of traditional cultures (e.g. long meal times and afternoon nap times) may simply be incompatible with increased productivity. You may want to have both, but this may be impossible. "Nobility" may not be the best word to use, but certainly there is something laudable about valuing the family highly, etc. I would, however, posit that aspects of what this means in the present world indicate that you can't have all of the aspects of a traditional world (e.g long meal times, living with your grandparents) and expect economic improvement.
      - lyudmil 15y ago
        From what I've seen the long meals and afternoon naps are a myth (even in Spain people don't do that anymore). In fact, I'm willing to assert Italians work harder than the French. They have a 40 hour work week (the French have 35) and three weeks vacation (5 in France, by law). The French are exactly as hedonistic as the Italians, so whatever incompatibilities the Italian way of life has with a strong economy, they would be a factor in France as well. However, I have yet to read the article or comment on HN supporting the urgent need to completely restructure the French economy.
- nostromo 15y ago
  I think the context is important -- and the OP is not talking about Italians as a race but Italians as a nation with certain characteristics. Read this way, it's more akin to saying, "Americans are, well, American."
  - protomyth 15y ago
    And probably be just as wrong. Trying to group people is always fraught with peril, but doing it in a dismissive way ("are, well,") is really not going to help the point. Italy isn't a mono-culture, neither is America.
bh42222 15y ago
it is their unreformable country’s. Yet the notion that change is impossible is not just defeatist but also wrong. In the mid-1990s successive Italian governments, desperate not to be left out of the euro, pushed through some impressive reforms. Even Mr Berlusconi has occasionally managed to pass some liberalising measures in between battling the courts: back in 2003 the Biagi labour-market law cut red tape at the bottom, boosting employment, and many economists have praised Italy’s pension reforms. He might have done much more had he used his vast power and popularity to do something other than protect his own interests. Entrepreneurial Italy will pay dearly for his pleasures.

by Jd 15y ago

diego_moita 15y ago

> Lots of European economies have done worse I think the article already addresses that. It stresses that "Italy’s economic illness is not the acute sort, but a chronic disease that slowly gnaws away at vitality". Spain, Ireland and Portugal might be in worse shape but they might be coming to understand that they need a tough treatment; Italy doesn't. The PIGS are at shock; Italy is just dazed at stupor. > Italians are, well, Italians :^) OK, you won.

acangiano 15y ago

> Italians are, well, Italians Care to elaborate on this? "Blacks are, well, blacks" would sound racist. I'm not sure this highly upvoted comment of yours is much nobler in spirit.

Jd 15y ago
"Racism" is a somewhat vague term for which I believe the current usage is primarily born out of the American civil rights movement. Europeans on the other hand have been comfortable with labeling various national characteristics for centuries -- various national characteristics that are undoubtedly true. These come in negative, positive, and contested categories. For instance, the British are known for their "stiff upper lip," Germans (traditionally, not contemporarily) for their warlike sentiment, etc. In America we have the sense that these things are mutable, and this is partially true, but it is unreasonable to expect people to change overnight, and it is especially unreasonable to expect that some external force (e.g. purely economic forces) will produce the massive changes that might be perceived as necessary for a society to adapt to modernity as the Economist writers perceive as necessary and laudable. In any case, I think it is unacceptable to focus only on the negative aspects of a people. "Blacks are, well, blacks" would generally be racist since virtually no one would use that in a positive sense. Italians often self-perceive that their resistance to the way things are done in a capitalist world is based on some inner nobility -- and although I generally disagree, I think there is still a grain of truth there. Besides, Italians are among the most openly racist peoples in Europe -- people from Northern Italy are even comfortable calling Southern Italy part of Africa (not meant in a positive sense!).
- lyudmil 15y ago
  I've been living in Italy for two years now and I have to say I don't see this resistance to the capitalist world you assert they have. In the North, where I live, the economy is large and lively, people are rich, and they work hard. There is, of course, a palpable difference between the way of life here and in Northern Europe, but it isn't as big as I think most people expect (the food and coffee are better). It feels very similar to a typical European capitalist economy. Of course, that's only half of the story. Southern Italy, despite it's idyllic landscapes and hedonism, has some serious economic, demographic, and social problems and they don't deny it. I have never felt they wore it as a badge of honor to signify some inner nobility, as you posit. Most Italians I've talked to want to solve these problems and believe they're actively working to do it. They don't feel the fact that they enjoy a good quality of life impedes their ability to develop a strong economy - they think the best of both worlds is possible.
  - Jd 15y ago
    Granted, I am conflating Northern and Southern Italy and most of my knowledge of both is from Italian expatriates who have deliberately left Italy to work in other countries due to dissatisfaction with the conditions there. As for "They don't feel the fact that they enjoy a good quality of life impedes their ability to develop a strong economy," they could simply be wrong. Certain aspects of traditional cultures (e.g. long meal times and afternoon nap times) may simply be incompatible with increased productivity. You may want to have both, but this may be impossible. "Nobility" may not be the best word to use, but certainly there is something laudable about valuing the family highly, etc. I would, however, posit that aspects of what this means in the present world indicate that you can't have all of the aspects of a traditional world (e.g long meal times, living with your grandparents) and expect economic improvement.
    - lyudmil 15y ago
      From what I've seen the long meals and afternoon naps are a myth (even in Spain people don't do that anymore). In fact, I'm willing to assert Italians work harder than the French. They have a 40 hour work week (the French have 35) and three weeks vacation (5 in France, by law). The French are exactly as hedonistic as the Italians, so whatever incompatibilities the Italian way of life has with a strong economy, they would be a factor in France as well. However, I have yet to read the article or comment on HN supporting the urgent need to completely restructure the French economy.
nostromo 15y ago
I think the context is important -- and the OP is not talking about Italians as a race but Italians as a nation with certain characteristics. Read this way, it's more akin to saying, "Americans are, well, American."
- protomyth 15y ago
  And probably be just as wrong. Trying to group people is always fraught with peril, but doing it in a dismissive way ("are, well,") is really not going to help the point. Italy isn't a mono-culture, neither is America.

bh42222 15y ago

it is their unreformable country’s. Yet the notion that change is impossible is not just defeatist but also wrong. In the mid-1990s successive Italian governments, desperate not to be left out of the euro, pushed through some impressive reforms. Even Mr Berlusconi has occasionally managed to pass some liberalising measures in between battling the courts: back in 2003 the Biagi labour-market law cut red tape at the bottom, boosting employment, and many economists have praised Italy’s pension reforms. He might have done much more had he used his vast power and popularity to do something other than protect his own interests. Entrepreneurial Italy will pay dearly for his pleasures.