25 ms·

Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

115 points by optimalsolver 6y ago

pomian 6y ago
The most poignant last words I heard from someone about to die, and did 2 hours later: "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about.
- harperlee 6y ago
  We are bombarded from fiction with the trope of someone making peace before dying. The fear my mother had just before dying from cancer, that I’ll never forget. It gives me shivers and anxiety more than a decade afterwards.
  - mrburkins 6y ago
    i lost my father a year ago, and was there as he passed away. society/hospice tells us that it brings comfort to the dying to be surrounded by family - who knows (and is the least i could do to support him after all he did for me). what i do know is that watching someone die is not for the faint of heart - its brutal. thank you for sharing your story and articulating/validating how i've been feeling about things. i wish you peace on your journey.
- taxicabjesus 6y ago
  > "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about. Doesn't seem poignant, I think this is sad. In a previous comment I said, "In America we have an odd relationship with the inevitable. Sometimes people get a terminal diagnosis, and sometimes they fight it. ..." [0] Fighting the inevitable is not a noble way to go. Sometimes people can forestall their passing for a few weeks, months or years, but the reaper comes for us all. There are a lot of hucksters who steal with the promise of giving us a little more time... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20224523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20224523 Children should be exposed to the wisdom of this quote, maybe from Tecumseh, maybe from some other native American: "So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. "When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. "When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.” [1] Whether or not there's a divide to go over, I think it important to not fight the inevitable. Make the most of the time you have, but don't fear the reaper [2]. [1] https://nativeheritageproject.com/2013/11/17/tecumseh-die-like-a-hero-going-home/ https://nativeheritageproject.com/2013/11/17/tecumseh-die-li... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVn6b9QQZeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVn6b9QQZeM - "The song, written and sung by lead guitarist Donald "Buck Dharma" Roeser, deals with eternal love and the inevitability of death." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(Don%27t_Fear)_The_Reaper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(Don%27t_Fear)_The_Reaper
  - Trasmatta 6y ago
    This comment seems a lot easier to write for somebody who's not on their deathbed. It's one thing to wax poetic about how somebody should approach death, and it's another thing to actually face it yourself. I think there's something important about the phrase "I don't want to die", and it's not particularly helpful to be dismissive of that. Most of us are going to be scared when facing death, and I think that's okay.
  - grok22 6y ago
    Why is your perspective more correct that the perspective of the person who doesn't want to die? I think we all know that people are of various natures and think in a myriad number of ways and refuse to accept that mostly so that society remains stable. But I feel that assuming this perspective is better than the other one (about not wanting to die) in this respect (for this particular thing about wanting to live or die on one's deathbed) is just a way of rationalizing death rather than accepting that people just have different natures.
    - taxicabjesus 6y ago
      The point is that death is inevitable. You can either accept the inevitable or fight it, you get to the same place regardless. One of the recurring characters on Star Trek were the omniscient immortal Q. One of the recurring subplots was of the Q getting bored of being immortal. "For us, the disease is immortality." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvxufh6ZDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvxufh6ZDo It's one thing to have purpose, or meaningful things to do. Sometimes people get to the place where they're just taking up space. My mom's 97 year old friend (stroked at 89, can't communicate) spends 7 days a week in her little room at the care home. We try to visit semi-regularly, but that turns out to be about two hours a week, or every-other-week. I've heard lately she's getting herself out of bed and falls. She is kept alive, but she doesn't really care to live. I think she was able to express this to her helper, when she was living at home...
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        It's not about stopping the inevitable. It is about delaying it. It's clear that you rage against the dying of your light constantly (as do we all, as we should) since death through inaction is available to us all daily and yet you choose action. Considering you don't take your own advice and actively consume water, it is hard to believe you.
ampdepolymerase 6y ago
As usual, immortality is the solution.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Now you have infinite years of problems... (to paraphraze JWZ)
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    Yeah, but there's plenty of room in the Hilbert Hotel of regret!
  - viro 6y ago
    but a bitch ain't one.... sorry I had to, I'll take my downvotes.
- nyokodo 6y ago
  > As usual, immortality is the solution. I’m not sure if you’re joking or not but many people are not when they say this. Immortality is impossible in this universe given known physics. The use of the word is at best equivocation and a rather desperate self-delusion. Even if we ignore physics the probability of dying by murder or suicide trend towards 1. All of us are contingent and will eventually face our death.
  - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
    Nothing in physics says it is impossible. The current theory in thermodynamics is that the general arrow of entropy applied to biology is decreasing internal entropy (of the cell or lifeform) at the expense of higher external entropy. Are you prepared to bet on this?
    - Majestic121 6y ago
      As far as I know, the currently most accepted hypothesis for the universe is that it will reach a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, or heat death[1], which is definitely incompatible with relying on entropy, and life in general. We have a bit of time to worry about that if we manage to get rid of aging though, I'll give you that ! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
coldtea 6y ago
For a: - "I should have done X" (regret because X wasn't followed) there are probably as many: - "I should not have done X" (regret because X was followed and made things shit) Even the "should not have worked as hard" would be most likely balanced with others saying: "should not have been as slack or loose at work, and did something important, made some legacy" In the end, nothing really matters, and the perspective at the deathbed might have hindsight in its favor, but it's equally blind to the consequences of alternatives that weren't followed.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- wtetzner 6y ago
  I think it's more of a way to gain perspective on your life now. E.g., imagining what would be important on your deathbed is an exercise that can help you figure out what you think is important in life.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  I am more and more getting irked by the "should not have worked so hard" crowd, or to be more precise, the ones that go "just quit and go backpacking". Great if you're young, wealthy and have a good social safety net (read: rich parents), not so much for the other 99% of the population. I tried it once, going out of my comfort zone to do the backpacking thing, but it just wasn't for me. I'm not very social, have trouble entertaining myself, and end up spending a ton of money on food, drink and entertainment just to not be alone with my thoughts too much.
  - Taylor_OD 6y ago
    That seems like valuable perspective. You are not one who likes to be alone with their thoughts too much. What's the version of quit and go backpacking for someone like you? My brother did the same thing and like you did not enjoy it. He thought it was too boring without another person. I havnt dont it but I'm very comfortable with really limited social contact and live in my own thoughts. If I had two good knees I'd likely take some type of break to try it out.
optimalsolver 6y ago
It shouldn't be overlooked that we tend to romanticize the dying process, probably for our own mental health. Your last words likely won't be wise, witty, or even coherent. A good account from a medical professional on what the end stage of life actually looks like can be found here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay... I was particularly struck by the following comment from one of the readers: """ My grandmother has dementia to the point that she yells and moans the same thing non stop 24 hours a day, including the phrase, “please help me”. This is continuous except for 15 minute patches of sleep here and there as she no longer really sleeps just dozes. She weighs 90 lbs if that and is eggshell fragile screaming when touched due to degenerative muscle tears compounded by arthritis. Her bowels no longer work and she fluctuates between constipation, where the assistants administer a suppository, or she has explosive diarrhea that must be cleaned up which requires moving her excessively and thus more screaming and claims of pain. She is on peritoneal dialysis and has congestive heart failure with a pace maker, prior to loosing all capacities a few months back she was swallowing nitroglycerin like candy and up until she stopped walking entirely my mom was dragging her to doctors and what not. Even then moving was difficult and required wheelchairs and walkers. Her dialysis port is always sore and semi infected despite meticulous hygiene. She has a raging UTI on a twice monthly basis though she is bathed by attendants and her diaper and garments changed regularly. She is on oxygen though she does not even move about to use oxygen as she can no longer stand nor even muster the strength to hold a sippy cup. She has forgotten how to eat or even swallow and still she is forced to choke down at least 15 pills per day and takes the occasional bite if food which she may stop chewing and allow to fall from her mouth. Her mouth is so dry the pills do not even dissolve when they lodge so she has to be coaxed and coaxed endlessly and given water in a dropper. She has round the clock private care to the tune of a few thousand per month. I had rather this money go to medical research or a non profit hospital. This team also includes a physical therapist which is useless. She is always freezing and has to be by a fireplace or heater or covered in layers of heated blankets so comfort is hard to achieve. She is moved around like a doll with much ado and her screaming in pain which my mom would claim was from her dementia and not so much pain. Finally after months of this torture on her poor failing little body my mother is now considering hospice care mainly due to the cocktail of pain killers and anti anxiety pills no longer soothe her at all-I really have no clue why it has not stopped her heart. It has been surreal to witness this and I feel so bad for people who do not have the resources or loved ones for even this much relief if relief is what you call it. However I think my grandmother would have never considered euthanasia or absence of life saving measures if given a choice while she was cogent because she had an unhealthy fear of death even then. The way we view death is really twisted and I fault religious nonsense with a lot of that phobia. Modern medicine, while mostly positive, can be grotesque because it can extend life past a semblance of life. I personally have had a living will made since this despite being young and can only hope we make strides in having physician assisted suicide legalized so people have options. """
keiferski 6y ago
Eh, as someone with a degree in philosophy, it’s this sort of overanalysis that has led to the field’s sidelining. The so-called folk wisdom stated by the dying might not be logically rigorous, but it’s a perspective that we would do well to remember. Being trite or simple doesn’t make something wrong. My own personal theory is that the deathbed perspective is quite similar to the childhood one: without the constraints of life placed upon us by social pressures and resource acquisition, we have an easier time realizing what is actually important.
- phkahler 6y ago
  What about this. Ask a person right now, what would they do if the knew they only had a week to live. Or if they had plenty of money and no obligations. This seems to help getting at parts of life they are neglecting. But not everyone is good at hypotheticals. Maybe that's why we put more weight on the deathbed words - the situation is very real?
  - keiferski 6y ago
    Yeah, that’s a good point too. We all live in a mental projection of the future, where we have essentially endless time ahead of us. People without the luxury of that illusion usually have insightful things to say.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    If I knew I only had a week to live, then I'll max out my credit cards, liquidate my retirement plans, and have a great vacation. This has nothing to do with my values though. I'd rather spend the week working on my antique collections, but the custom parts I need for the next step won't arrive in less than a week if I ordered them today. Those parts are too expensive to pay cash for without saving up for them, since I believe the long run is more than 10 years I'm better off saving up for those parts instead of taking our a loan.
- Iv 6y ago
  Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a perspective to his life achievements.
kristiandupont 6y ago
This article https://medium.com/@rikardhjort/the-deathbed-fallacy-5e54d9639167 https://medium.com/@rikardhjort/the-deathbed-fallacy-5e54d96... dives into the same topic and makes, IMO, slightly better points.
- hjorthjort 6y ago
  Thanks!
christophergs 6y ago
This article makes me think about Kahneman's research into our two selves: remembered and experienced. Quick quote from relevant paper: "consider a music lover who listens raptly to a long symphony on a disk that is scratched near the end, producing a shocking sound. Such incidents are often described by the statement that the bad ending 'ruined the whole experience'. But, in fact, the experience was not ruined, only the memory of it."[1] [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory https://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_expe...
js8 6y ago
Is it considered valuable? I heard that people on deathbed typically say they should have gone for more friendship and less money/power, but I don't see that many people valuing that perspective. :-)
- bluGill 6y ago
  Who knows. It is always easy to see what you lost, but not easy to see what would have been. Would more friends with no money be worth it? Would it even be possible, or are most people your friend with money but not without. This should be read in two different ways: the cynical they are your friends for the money; and the more charitable without money you are a freeloader not worthy of being a friend.
- toto444 6y ago
  > but I don't see that many people valuing that perspective. :-) You don't have the chance to talk to them because when you are working hard at the office with your like minded colleagues they're at the pub like minded friends.
jack_riminton 6y ago
They're also massively contingent on who they're speaking to: - Would someone declare their most heartfelt thoughts to a random nurse? - Would someone who isn't really a people person bother expressing their wisdom to another person?
nullserver 6y ago
Got to deathbed (series of strokes) etc. Then had the poor grace to get better, sort of. Made sure to say what I wanted to kids, (best I could). Reached out to ones that I wanted to. The experience definitely changes perspective. Spending time with loved ones is far more important. Work is far less, except when I need a break from loved ones. I really stopped giving any sort of sh*t what anyone thought. So I’m much less afraid to call it like I see it.
- jacquesc 6y ago
  This perspective actually seems so much more interesting. Deathbed survivors.
  - nullserver 6y ago
    It’s grim, but bridge jumpers that actually survive will often speak about how the unsolvable and overwhelming problems change a moment after stepping off bridge. As in how losing that job doesn’t seem so bad now.
    - cyberlurker 6y ago
      VR Therapy is going to wild...
xivzgrev 6y ago
I’m not sure this guy even read the book or blog. The conversations weren’t simply “Bonnie come here...i wish I was more true to myself...”. They told stories of their regrets. As they were preparing to meet their end, I imagine one way to give themselves closure was to get things off their chest, or to help others avoid similar mistakes.
mongo_lover 6y ago
As someone that has had one or two "deathbed" experiences, I can say two things struck me about them 1) I felt complete peace about dying. In fact, I had to reason myself towards wanting to live 2) I felt a level of clarity about what was important to me that I have never felt before (or since). I struggle to incorporate that into my life on an ongoing basis. I think these experiences were a terrible gift. I would wish everyone experienced the clarity I had but I could not wish you had to go where I did to get it.
- unphased 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing a piece of how it felt. I'm curious what the circumstances around that were, if you don't mind.
  - mongo_lover 6y ago
    I had(!) an incurable type of cancer. There were complications during chemo.
- scotty79 6y ago
  When I wonder about my own death I'm always unsure whether I'll be afraid and sad about the fact that I won't see the future or just be so tired with how I feel that I'll just want to be done with it as soon as possible.
  - mongo_lover 6y ago
    The more imminent death seemed, none of that really came to mind. I only felt fear when death was a possibility but when it seemed death was certain, that fear went away. It was strange.
- DiggyJohnson 6y ago
  Is is worth your time do describe that feeling of clarity? Have you ever been able to (re)capture it, even for a moment? Is this a silly question? That's an interesting datum in itself.
throwaway98797 6y ago
This is one of the flaws with Bezos regret minimization framework. Optimizing for a point in time perspective seems like the wrong function for most people. Life is risk. You make a choice. When I was sick and alone and had some risk of dying due to my circumstances I felt lonely, but that moment does not define my global preferences. It does not mean that I need / should construct my life that when I’m at risk for death I should have people around me. The question is, what will that cost the rest my life in terms of quality of life. This is painful obvious if you think about it and yet...here we are.
timwaagh 6y ago
I don't need to die to know that the commonly advocated clichés do in fact matter. But you know I need money to make that happen.
- rg2004 6y ago
  Have you considered what it would take to achieve your goals without the use of money? Give it some thought, I was surprised to find it was possible.
11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
How was the question phrased? "Do you have any regrets?" and they listed these five? Was there a second question: "What was the greatest sense of accomplishment?" Without a counter question of some sort, this seems.... unbalanced by construction.
martyrs 6y ago
Those interested in the subject might find the movie Martyrs interesting. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1029234/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1029234/
- qntmfred 6y ago
  I gotta say I love that you made an account just to post this obscure film
  - martyrs 6y ago
    You gotta do what you gotta do.
- hjorthjort 6y ago
  ... "Fifteen years after a horrifying experience of abduction and prolonged torture, Lucie embarks on a bloody quest for revenge against her oppressors. Along with her childhood friend, Anna, who also suffered abuse, she quickly descends, without hope, into madness and her own delusions. Anna, left on her own begins to re-experience what Lucie did when she was only twelve years old."
hjorthjort 6y ago
I've written about this: https://www.hjorthjort.xyz/2018/02/21/the-deathbed-fallacy.html https://www.hjorthjort.xyz/2018/02/21/the-deathbed-fallacy.h... My main issue with the deathbed advice is exactly what he calls "hindsight bias". The deathbed advice is more of a wish-list -- it's not like they were thinking at the time "I should work harder" or "I don't live as my true self, and that's fine". I try to not work too hard, but I also try to make a good and meaningful career for myself. Do I just work less hard? I try to live as my authentic self, but looking back 5 years I see I was probably not doing, in a bunch of ways that seem obvious now but weren't at the time. I wish I had stayed in touch with some of my friends, but quite a few of them I'm happy I cut ties with. I take no big offence with the advice in general. I think most people recognize that list as things that are sensible and lead to a higher-quality life. If these advice came from a generic life-coach, we'd shrug and say "good points, seems about right, easier said than done". But somehow, because they are "deathbed regrets" they get a veneer of sage-likeness. Then again, here we are arguing about articles on Hacker News, so what the hell do we know about happiness?
elil17 6y ago
The big empirical evidence that those deathbed platitudes are right: The Harvard Adult Development Study. The results are clear: achievements (even for people who achieve incredible, world changing things that most of us could never hope to come close to) aren't strongly correlated with happiness at any age. Good interpersonal relationships, in contrast, are the most powerful happiness determining factor.
- throwaway98797 6y ago
  Until you realize that some achievements are needed to have good relationships.
  - elil17 6y ago
    I'm curious what those would be
    - lixtra 6y ago
      Some development of personality, kindness, etc. can be considered achievements.
      - wukerplank 6y ago
        Is that how achievements were defined in the The Harvard Adult Development Study?
    - dimitrios1 6y ago
      Well for my circle of friends, a very big achievement is getting married and having at least one child (biological or adopted)
  - notriddle 6y ago
    You don't need to be a millionaire to make friends.
    - 6y ago
NuSkooler 6y ago
I think it's important to remember that many of these "death bed" bits of wisdom are often the same or extremely similar to those found in deep psychedelic and religious experiences, meditation, so on. As someone pointed out these are often also similar to the more "child like" thoughts that are not constrained by society and do very much so seem to be more of the things that actually do matter.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> the dying value exactly the things that our culture tells us all to value: the themes that fill our advertising and magazines This is a strong, frustratingly unsubstantiated claim. Do we see deathbed wishes vary across cultures in variance with advertised values? Did deathbed wishes “sync up” when mass advertising took hold?
m12k 6y ago
I've been reading some pop-psy books recently (Stumbling on Happiness and Thinking, Fast and Slow) and a recurring theme is that we remember many things in a different way than we experience them in the moment. This can cause weird biases, e.g. where we choose to repeat experiences that are more painful than other options, because we remember pain inaccurately. But one point the books both make is that this is not necessarily irrational per se - we often remember things much more times than we experience them, so optimizing for the memory of them can make sense.
tern 6y ago
We need not only look to the dead to uncover our deepest values. We can look to mystics, and other masters of the world's religions who spent their entire lives inquiring directly into these questions, armed with their own masters' guidance and millennia of roadmaps painstakingly drawn out by countless others who attempted this before them. Here in America we often think of Religion as dogma, or as a philosophy, when in reality there are many through-lines that are more adequately characterized as a process of intense questioning and exploration carried on continuously since the beginning of civilization. After so much effort, the conclusions are quite stable, and you will find them most accessibly in the Indian, Tibetan, and Chinese canons.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
renewiltord 6y ago
Interesting article. Unlike many others here, I was convinced: * When I think "I should have worked less" I imagine myself as having worked less and achieved the same. I fail to model the counterfactual reality accurately. I'm imagining a world where my bank balance is the same but I had 20% more time. That means for me, the "I wish I hadn't worked as hard" would be a poor statement. I would fail to have my standard of living. It's possible others are just as bad at the modeling and seeing what I've seen of others, I'm a slightly above average modeler in general. * I am comfortable with most of my correspondence being public after I die (and for that which reveals details about other participants, when they die as well). But I know that many HN commenters hate this. They have articulated this strongly in the past so I know that control of how you are perceived post-death is important to many others. Unable to categorize who goes into perception management and who goes into Diogenes, I should reasonably not infer that people will tell the truth since they could just be perception managing. Overall, interesting article. Made me think about a thing I did not even realize I assumed without basis: that deathbed perspectives are valuable because of lack of incentives. I suppose there is the added truth that people on their deathbed are rarely as mentally able as those for whom death is far. Yes, I think downgrading my view of the deathbed perspective is correct.
kwhitefoot 6y ago
Makes me think of Quora where people often say: "Before you ask why ask if." https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-Before-you-ask-why-ask-if-in-details-with-an-example https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-Before-you-ask-why-ask...
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
There's an exercise used in personal growth experiences. They ask "What would you say if you knew you were going to die tomorrow? Who would you say it to?" Then when everyone has thought about it and revealed their choice, they ask "What are you waiting for?" Of course, it may be hard to figure this out, if tomorrow isn't really your last day. Its easy to fudge and wriggle and decide you don't really have something to say, or don't want to reveal what it might be. It can also be easier to face when asked by a group you are close to, because you don't want to lie to them (even if you would lie to yourself). So it doesn't often yield catharsis. But sometimes it does.

115 points by optimalsolver 6y ago

The most poignant last words I heard from someone about to die, and did 2 hours later: "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about.

harperlee 6y ago
We are bombarded from fiction with the trope of someone making peace before dying. The fear my mother had just before dying from cancer, that I’ll never forget. It gives me shivers and anxiety more than a decade afterwards.
- mrburkins 6y ago
  i lost my father a year ago, and was there as he passed away. society/hospice tells us that it brings comfort to the dying to be surrounded by family - who knows (and is the least i could do to support him after all he did for me). what i do know is that watching someone die is not for the faint of heart - its brutal. thank you for sharing your story and articulating/validating how i've been feeling about things. i wish you peace on your journey.
taxicabjesus 6y ago
> "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about. Doesn't seem poignant, I think this is sad. In a previous comment I said, "In America we have an odd relationship with the inevitable. Sometimes people get a terminal diagnosis, and sometimes they fight it. ..." [0] Fighting the inevitable is not a noble way to go. Sometimes people can forestall their passing for a few weeks, months or years, but the reaper comes for us all. There are a lot of hucksters who steal with the promise of giving us a little more time... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20224523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20224523 Children should be exposed to the wisdom of this quote, maybe from Tecumseh, maybe from some other native American: "So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. "When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. "When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.” [1] Whether or not there's a divide to go over, I think it important to not fight the inevitable. Make the most of the time you have, but don't fear the reaper [2]. [1] https://nativeheritageproject.com/2013/11/17/tecumseh-die-like-a-hero-going-home/ https://nativeheritageproject.com/2013/11/17/tecumseh-die-li... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVn6b9QQZeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVn6b9QQZeM - "The song, written and sung by lead guitarist Donald "Buck Dharma" Roeser, deals with eternal love and the inevitability of death." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(Don%27t_Fear)_The_Reaper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(Don%27t_Fear)_The_Reaper
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  This comment seems a lot easier to write for somebody who's not on their deathbed. It's one thing to wax poetic about how somebody should approach death, and it's another thing to actually face it yourself. I think there's something important about the phrase "I don't want to die", and it's not particularly helpful to be dismissive of that. Most of us are going to be scared when facing death, and I think that's okay.
- grok22 6y ago
  Why is your perspective more correct that the perspective of the person who doesn't want to die? I think we all know that people are of various natures and think in a myriad number of ways and refuse to accept that mostly so that society remains stable. But I feel that assuming this perspective is better than the other one (about not wanting to die) in this respect (for this particular thing about wanting to live or die on one's deathbed) is just a way of rationalizing death rather than accepting that people just have different natures.
  - taxicabjesus 6y ago
    The point is that death is inevitable. You can either accept the inevitable or fight it, you get to the same place regardless. One of the recurring characters on Star Trek were the omniscient immortal Q. One of the recurring subplots was of the Q getting bored of being immortal. "For us, the disease is immortality." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvxufh6ZDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvxufh6ZDo It's one thing to have purpose, or meaningful things to do. Sometimes people get to the place where they're just taking up space. My mom's 97 year old friend (stroked at 89, can't communicate) spends 7 days a week in her little room at the care home. We try to visit semi-regularly, but that turns out to be about two hours a week, or every-other-week. I've heard lately she's getting herself out of bed and falls. She is kept alive, but she doesn't really care to live. I think she was able to express this to her helper, when she was living at home...
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      It's not about stopping the inevitable. It is about delaying it. It's clear that you rage against the dying of your light constantly (as do we all, as we should) since death through inaction is available to us all daily and yet you choose action. Considering you don't take your own advice and actively consume water, it is hard to believe you.

ampdepolymerase 6y ago

As usual, immortality is the solution.

coldtea 6y ago
Now you have infinite years of problems... (to paraphraze JWZ)
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  Yeah, but there's plenty of room in the Hilbert Hotel of regret!
- viro 6y ago
  but a bitch ain't one.... sorry I had to, I'll take my downvotes.
nyokodo 6y ago
> As usual, immortality is the solution. I’m not sure if you’re joking or not but many people are not when they say this. Immortality is impossible in this universe given known physics. The use of the word is at best equivocation and a rather desperate self-delusion. Even if we ignore physics the probability of dying by murder or suicide trend towards 1. All of us are contingent and will eventually face our death.
- ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  Nothing in physics says it is impossible. The current theory in thermodynamics is that the general arrow of entropy applied to biology is decreasing internal entropy (of the cell or lifeform) at the expense of higher external entropy. Are you prepared to bet on this?
  - Majestic121 6y ago
    As far as I know, the currently most accepted hypothesis for the universe is that it will reach a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, or heat death[1], which is definitely incompatible with relying on entropy, and life in general. We have a bit of time to worry about that if we manage to get rid of aging though, I'll give you that ! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

coldtea 6y ago

For a: - "I should have done X" (regret because X wasn't followed) there are probably as many: - "I should not have done X" (regret because X was followed and made things shit) Even the "should not have worked as hard" would be most likely balanced with others saying: "should not have been as slack or loose at work, and did something important, made some legacy" In the end, nothing really matters, and the perspective at the deathbed might have hindsight in its favor, but it's equally blind to the consequences of alternatives that weren't followed.

deleted 6y ago
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wtetzner 6y ago
I think it's more of a way to gain perspective on your life now. E.g., imagining what would be important on your deathbed is an exercise that can help you figure out what you think is important in life.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
I am more and more getting irked by the "should not have worked so hard" crowd, or to be more precise, the ones that go "just quit and go backpacking". Great if you're young, wealthy and have a good social safety net (read: rich parents), not so much for the other 99% of the population. I tried it once, going out of my comfort zone to do the backpacking thing, but it just wasn't for me. I'm not very social, have trouble entertaining myself, and end up spending a ton of money on food, drink and entertainment just to not be alone with my thoughts too much.
- Taylor_OD 6y ago
  That seems like valuable perspective. You are not one who likes to be alone with their thoughts too much. What's the version of quit and go backpacking for someone like you? My brother did the same thing and like you did not enjoy it. He thought it was too boring without another person. I havnt dont it but I'm very comfortable with really limited social contact and live in my own thoughts. If I had two good knees I'd likely take some type of break to try it out.

optimalsolver 6y ago

It shouldn't be overlooked that we tend to romanticize the dying process, probably for our own mental health. Your last words likely won't be wise, witty, or even coherent. A good account from a medical professional on what the end stage of life actually looks like can be found here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay... I was particularly struck by the following comment from one of the readers: """ My grandmother has dementia to the point that she yells and moans the same thing non stop 24 hours a day, including the phrase, “please help me”. This is continuous except for 15 minute patches of sleep here and there as she no longer really sleeps just dozes. She weighs 90 lbs if that and is eggshell fragile screaming when touched due to degenerative muscle tears compounded by arthritis. Her bowels no longer work and she fluctuates between constipation, where the assistants administer a suppository, or she has explosive diarrhea that must be cleaned up which requires moving her excessively and thus more screaming and claims of pain. She is on peritoneal dialysis and has congestive heart failure with a pace maker, prior to loosing all capacities a few months back she was swallowing nitroglycerin like candy and up until she stopped walking entirely my mom was dragging her to doctors and what not. Even then moving was difficult and required wheelchairs and walkers. Her dialysis port is always sore and semi infected despite meticulous hygiene. She has a raging UTI on a twice monthly basis though she is bathed by attendants and her diaper and garments changed regularly. She is on oxygen though she does not even move about to use oxygen as she can no longer stand nor even muster the strength to hold a sippy cup. She has forgotten how to eat or even swallow and still she is forced to choke down at least 15 pills per day and takes the occasional bite if food which she may stop chewing and allow to fall from her mouth. Her mouth is so dry the pills do not even dissolve when they lodge so she has to be coaxed and coaxed endlessly and given water in a dropper. She has round the clock private care to the tune of a few thousand per month. I had rather this money go to medical research or a non profit hospital. This team also includes a physical therapist which is useless. She is always freezing and has to be by a fireplace or heater or covered in layers of heated blankets so comfort is hard to achieve. She is moved around like a doll with much ado and her screaming in pain which my mom would claim was from her dementia and not so much pain. Finally after months of this torture on her poor failing little body my mother is now considering hospice care mainly due to the cocktail of pain killers and anti anxiety pills no longer soothe her at all-I really have no clue why it has not stopped her heart. It has been surreal to witness this and I feel so bad for people who do not have the resources or loved ones for even this much relief if relief is what you call it. However I think my grandmother would have never considered euthanasia or absence of life saving measures if given a choice while she was cogent because she had an unhealthy fear of death even then. The way we view death is really twisted and I fault religious nonsense with a lot of that phobia. Modern medicine, while mostly positive, can be grotesque because it can extend life past a semblance of life. I personally have had a living will made since this despite being young and can only hope we make strides in having physician assisted suicide legalized so people have options. """

keiferski 6y ago

Eh, as someone with a degree in philosophy, it’s this sort of overanalysis that has led to the field’s sidelining. The so-called folk wisdom stated by the dying might not be logically rigorous, but it’s a perspective that we would do well to remember. Being trite or simple doesn’t make something wrong. My own personal theory is that the deathbed perspective is quite similar to the childhood one: without the constraints of life placed upon us by social pressures and resource acquisition, we have an easier time realizing what is actually important.

phkahler 6y ago
What about this. Ask a person right now, what would they do if the knew they only had a week to live. Or if they had plenty of money and no obligations. This seems to help getting at parts of life they are neglecting. But not everyone is good at hypotheticals. Maybe that's why we put more weight on the deathbed words - the situation is very real?
- keiferski 6y ago
  Yeah, that’s a good point too. We all live in a mental projection of the future, where we have essentially endless time ahead of us. People without the luxury of that illusion usually have insightful things to say.
- bluGill 6y ago
  If I knew I only had a week to live, then I'll max out my credit cards, liquidate my retirement plans, and have a great vacation. This has nothing to do with my values though. I'd rather spend the week working on my antique collections, but the custom parts I need for the next step won't arrive in less than a week if I ordered them today. Those parts are too expensive to pay cash for without saving up for them, since I believe the long run is more than 10 years I'm better off saving up for those parts instead of taking our a loan.
Iv 6y ago
Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a perspective to his life achievements.

kristiandupont 6y ago

This article https://medium.com/@rikardhjort/the-deathbed-fallacy-5e54d9639167 https://medium.com/@rikardhjort/the-deathbed-fallacy-5e54d96... dives into the same topic and makes, IMO, slightly better points.

hjorthjort 6y ago
Thanks!

christophergs 6y ago

This article makes me think about Kahneman's research into our two selves: remembered and experienced. Quick quote from relevant paper: "consider a music lover who listens raptly to a long symphony on a disk that is scratched near the end, producing a shocking sound. Such incidents are often described by the statement that the bad ending 'ruined the whole experience'. But, in fact, the experience was not ruined, only the memory of it."[1] [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory https://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_expe...

js8 6y ago

Is it considered valuable? I heard that people on deathbed typically say they should have gone for more friendship and less money/power, but I don't see that many people valuing that perspective. :-)

bluGill 6y ago
Who knows. It is always easy to see what you lost, but not easy to see what would have been. Would more friends with no money be worth it? Would it even be possible, or are most people your friend with money but not without. This should be read in two different ways: the cynical they are your friends for the money; and the more charitable without money you are a freeloader not worthy of being a friend.
toto444 6y ago
> but I don't see that many people valuing that perspective. :-) You don't have the chance to talk to them because when you are working hard at the office with your like minded colleagues they're at the pub like minded friends.

jack_riminton 6y ago

They're also massively contingent on who they're speaking to: - Would someone declare their most heartfelt thoughts to a random nurse? - Would someone who isn't really a people person bother expressing their wisdom to another person?

nullserver 6y ago

Got to deathbed (series of strokes) etc. Then had the poor grace to get better, sort of. Made sure to say what I wanted to kids, (best I could). Reached out to ones that I wanted to. The experience definitely changes perspective. Spending time with loved ones is far more important. Work is far less, except when I need a break from loved ones. I really stopped giving any sort of sh*t what anyone thought. So I’m much less afraid to call it like I see it.

jacquesc 6y ago
This perspective actually seems so much more interesting. Deathbed survivors.
- nullserver 6y ago
  It’s grim, but bridge jumpers that actually survive will often speak about how the unsolvable and overwhelming problems change a moment after stepping off bridge. As in how losing that job doesn’t seem so bad now.
  - cyberlurker 6y ago
    VR Therapy is going to wild...

xivzgrev 6y ago

I’m not sure this guy even read the book or blog. The conversations weren’t simply “Bonnie come here...i wish I was more true to myself...”. They told stories of their regrets. As they were preparing to meet their end, I imagine one way to give themselves closure was to get things off their chest, or to help others avoid similar mistakes.

mongo_lover 6y ago

As someone that has had one or two "deathbed" experiences, I can say two things struck me about them 1) I felt complete peace about dying. In fact, I had to reason myself towards wanting to live 2) I felt a level of clarity about what was important to me that I have never felt before (or since). I struggle to incorporate that into my life on an ongoing basis. I think these experiences were a terrible gift. I would wish everyone experienced the clarity I had but I could not wish you had to go where I did to get it.

unphased 6y ago
Thanks for sharing a piece of how it felt. I'm curious what the circumstances around that were, if you don't mind.
- mongo_lover 6y ago
  I had(!) an incurable type of cancer. There were complications during chemo.
scotty79 6y ago
When I wonder about my own death I'm always unsure whether I'll be afraid and sad about the fact that I won't see the future or just be so tired with how I feel that I'll just want to be done with it as soon as possible.
- mongo_lover 6y ago
  The more imminent death seemed, none of that really came to mind. I only felt fear when death was a possibility but when it seemed death was certain, that fear went away. It was strange.
DiggyJohnson 6y ago
Is is worth your time do describe that feeling of clarity? Have you ever been able to (re)capture it, even for a moment? Is this a silly question? That's an interesting datum in itself.

throwaway98797 6y ago

This is one of the flaws with Bezos regret minimization framework. Optimizing for a point in time perspective seems like the wrong function for most people. Life is risk. You make a choice. When I was sick and alone and had some risk of dying due to my circumstances I felt lonely, but that moment does not define my global preferences. It does not mean that I need / should construct my life that when I’m at risk for death I should have people around me. The question is, what will that cost the rest my life in terms of quality of life. This is painful obvious if you think about it and yet...here we are.

timwaagh 6y ago

I don't need to die to know that the commonly advocated clichés do in fact matter. But you know I need money to make that happen.

rg2004 6y ago
Have you considered what it would take to achieve your goals without the use of money? Give it some thought, I was surprised to find it was possible.

11thEarlOfMar 6y ago

How was the question phrased? "Do you have any regrets?" and they listed these five? Was there a second question: "What was the greatest sense of accomplishment?" Without a counter question of some sort, this seems.... unbalanced by construction.

martyrs 6y ago

Those interested in the subject might find the movie Martyrs interesting. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1029234/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1029234/

qntmfred 6y ago
I gotta say I love that you made an account just to post this obscure film
- martyrs 6y ago
  You gotta do what you gotta do.
hjorthjort 6y ago
... "Fifteen years after a horrifying experience of abduction and prolonged torture, Lucie embarks on a bloody quest for revenge against her oppressors. Along with her childhood friend, Anna, who also suffered abuse, she quickly descends, without hope, into madness and her own delusions. Anna, left on her own begins to re-experience what Lucie did when she was only twelve years old."

hjorthjort 6y ago

I've written about this: https://www.hjorthjort.xyz/2018/02/21/the-deathbed-fallacy.html https://www.hjorthjort.xyz/2018/02/21/the-deathbed-fallacy.h... My main issue with the deathbed advice is exactly what he calls "hindsight bias". The deathbed advice is more of a wish-list -- it's not like they were thinking at the time "I should work harder" or "I don't live as my true self, and that's fine". I try to not work too hard, but I also try to make a good and meaningful career for myself. Do I just work less hard? I try to live as my authentic self, but looking back 5 years I see I was probably not doing, in a bunch of ways that seem obvious now but weren't at the time. I wish I had stayed in touch with some of my friends, but quite a few of them I'm happy I cut ties with. I take no big offence with the advice in general. I think most people recognize that list as things that are sensible and lead to a higher-quality life. If these advice came from a generic life-coach, we'd shrug and say "good points, seems about right, easier said than done". But somehow, because they are "deathbed regrets" they get a veneer of sage-likeness. Then again, here we are arguing about articles on Hacker News, so what the hell do we know about happiness?

elil17 6y ago

The big empirical evidence that those deathbed platitudes are right: The Harvard Adult Development Study. The results are clear: achievements (even for people who achieve incredible, world changing things that most of us could never hope to come close to) aren't strongly correlated with happiness at any age. Good interpersonal relationships, in contrast, are the most powerful happiness determining factor.

throwaway98797 6y ago
Until you realize that some achievements are needed to have good relationships.
- elil17 6y ago
  I'm curious what those would be
  - lixtra 6y ago
    Some development of personality, kindness, etc. can be considered achievements.
    - wukerplank 6y ago
      Is that how achievements were defined in the The Harvard Adult Development Study?
  - dimitrios1 6y ago
    Well for my circle of friends, a very big achievement is getting married and having at least one child (biological or adopted)
- notriddle 6y ago
  You don't need to be a millionaire to make friends.
  - 6y ago

NuSkooler 6y ago

I think it's important to remember that many of these "death bed" bits of wisdom are often the same or extremely similar to those found in deep psychedelic and religious experiences, meditation, so on. As someone pointed out these are often also similar to the more "child like" thoughts that are not constrained by society and do very much so seem to be more of the things that actually do matter.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> the dying value exactly the things that our culture tells us all to value: the themes that fill our advertising and magazines This is a strong, frustratingly unsubstantiated claim. Do we see deathbed wishes vary across cultures in variance with advertised values? Did deathbed wishes “sync up” when mass advertising took hold?

m12k 6y ago

I've been reading some pop-psy books recently (Stumbling on Happiness and Thinking, Fast and Slow) and a recurring theme is that we remember many things in a different way than we experience them in the moment. This can cause weird biases, e.g. where we choose to repeat experiences that are more painful than other options, because we remember pain inaccurately. But one point the books both make is that this is not necessarily irrational per se - we often remember things much more times than we experience them, so optimizing for the memory of them can make sense.

tern 6y ago

We need not only look to the dead to uncover our deepest values. We can look to mystics, and other masters of the world's religions who spent their entire lives inquiring directly into these questions, armed with their own masters' guidance and millennia of roadmaps painstakingly drawn out by countless others who attempted this before them. Here in America we often think of Religion as dogma, or as a philosophy, when in reality there are many through-lines that are more adequately characterized as a process of intense questioning and exploration carried on continuously since the beginning of civilization. After so much effort, the conclusions are quite stable, and you will find them most accessibly in the Indian, Tibetan, and Chinese canons.

deleted 6y ago

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renewiltord 6y ago

Interesting article. Unlike many others here, I was convinced: * When I think "I should have worked less" I imagine myself as having worked less and achieved the same. I fail to model the counterfactual reality accurately. I'm imagining a world where my bank balance is the same but I had 20% more time. That means for me, the "I wish I hadn't worked as hard" would be a poor statement. I would fail to have my standard of living. It's possible others are just as bad at the modeling and seeing what I've seen of others, I'm a slightly above average modeler in general. * I am comfortable with most of my correspondence being public after I die (and for that which reveals details about other participants, when they die as well). But I know that many HN commenters hate this. They have articulated this strongly in the past so I know that control of how you are perceived post-death is important to many others. Unable to categorize who goes into perception management and who goes into Diogenes, I should reasonably not infer that people will tell the truth since they could just be perception managing. Overall, interesting article. Made me think about a thing I did not even realize I assumed without basis: that deathbed perspectives are valuable because of lack of incentives. I suppose there is the added truth that people on their deathbed are rarely as mentally able as those for whom death is far. Yes, I think downgrading my view of the deathbed perspective is correct.

kwhitefoot 6y ago

Makes me think of Quora where people often say: "Before you ask why ask if." https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-Before-you-ask-why-ask-if-in-details-with-an-example https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-Before-you-ask-why-ask...

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

There's an exercise used in personal growth experiences. They ask "What would you say if you knew you were going to die tomorrow? Who would you say it to?" Then when everyone has thought about it and revealed their choice, they ask "What are you waiting for?" Of course, it may be hard to figure this out, if tomorrow isn't really your last day. Its easy to fudge and wriggle and decide you don't really have something to say, or don't want to reveal what it might be. It can also be easier to face when asked by a group you are close to, because you don't want to lie to them (even if you would lie to yourself). So it doesn't often yield catharsis. But sometimes it does.