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When everything is a commodity it's hard to see how this will be useful. When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. I

When everything is a commodity it's hard to see how this will be useful. When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. I cannot see how repairing a TV will ever be cheaper than just replacing it since they are so cheap brand new. This also applies to smartphones, none of the popular models have replaceable batteries so in the trash they go and they become worthless, even if the hardware could keep up for 10 years often the software is outdated, inseceure and not worth using. I'll be hard pressed to believe this will result in anything tangible. The real test is if they can convince Apple to make Louis' job easier, wouldn't that be nice.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago
> When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. Depends how much you paid for it, where you live, what it means to procure one, etc. Also, cost might not be the only factor for you. Ethic, preferences, attachment or logistic can kick in.
xd 6y ago
I've repaired all my appliances myself over the last 20+ years, to say it's cheaper to replace is just plain false, even today. Most faults are easy fixes like sensors or motors and even the higher end PCB replacements work out cheaper. However! if you are not inclined to fix yourself then the costs to have someone else fix your appliances may not work out as cost effective.
- knorker 6y ago
  That's fine. I'd rather give an old broken fridge for free to someone who'll actually fix it, than throw it away. Like with old computer stuff. I go out of my way to find someone else who needs it, because 1) I hate the waste and environmental impact, and 2) in my poorer days I was the recipient of "old garbage computer stuff" as my only computer stuff. I had an old shitty laptop with no battery, that I found an old motorcycle lead-acid battery I could hook up. With a couple of diodes I could even charge it through the laptop. I could never afford a real laptop, but this was a computer on the go for me. A friend of mine couldn't afford batteries for his calculator, so he took a scrap power adapter and hooked it up to its battery terminals. I'm fine with someone getting $50k of tooling and then being able to create a reuse market. Better to not need it, but it's also not realistic to have a law that mandates that all electronics must be repairable with a screwdriver and a pair of plyers.
intricatedetail 6y ago
This is a myth. It used to be that tools for SMD rework were expensive and inaccessible, but now you can get a good kit with a trinocular microscope for under $1000. It is still quite a bit, but reachable if you want to start small repair business in your community. I'd say bigger problem are high taxes and bureaucracy.
mytailorisrich 6y ago
That's because this sort of legislation (in the UK and in the EU) is driven by superficial thinking and politics, not data-driven analysis and pragmatic considerations. People go "why don't they just make things simpler to repair?" like it was an obvious solution to problems (real or perceived) whereas the reality is obviously much more complex. Appliances are already quite durable and repairable. Making things 'more repairable' can increase cost and resources needed. Cost of labour and parts can quickly render repairs uneconomical even if they would be perfectly doable. Some devices are so integrated (e.g. TVs these days) that the very concept of 'repair' is almost meaningless. People do not necessarily want to repair a broken old device because there are better new ones available. These are all competing considerations and the issue is therefore complex. I would rather they focus on ease of recycling. The EU legislation has some measures on recycling but gets too much diverted by this "right to repair", IMHO.
- statstutor 6y ago
  > Making things 'more repairable' can increase cost and resources needed. I don't think this is in dispute, is it? The point is that manufacturers must now consider this cost in their calculations, rather than pass all the consequences on to the consumer without caring. > People do not necessarily want to repair a broken old device If the old device still has value, then both can happen - I can get a new device, and pass my old device on for repair and re-use.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    > The point is that manufacturers must now consider this cost in their calculations, rather than pass all the consequences on to the consumer without caring. If this was the goal, then simply taxing fossil fuels and other polluting sources would be the ideal and simple solution. How high would the taxes need to be? However high it takes to get pollution levels down to where they need to be. The actual cost of a new item would be properly reflected in the price, and therefore incentivize the purchasing of reusable and repairable items, which would incentivize manufacturers making reusable and repairable items. Of course, that would bring the world’s economy to a half, as governments’ expectations and calculations are assumed on continuously increasing consumption.
edent 6y ago
I repaired a new-ish TV - cost me £30. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2020/10/replacing-the-motionengine-on-a-panasonic-tv/ https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2020/10/replacing-the-motionengine-... If you can find me a new TV at that price, please let me know! Yes, getting in a professional at £X per hour means it is probably not economical to repair a cheap washing machine. But if the parts and manuals are easily available, it suddenly becomes a lot quicker and easier to repair it yourself rather than replace.
- foobar33333 6y ago
  The problem is you need to be highly skilled to do that repair. So many times I have ordered replacement parts and then either broken something like a plastic ribbon cable connector, or I have installed the new part and it still doesn't work.
  - MayeulC 6y ago
    Highly skilled? I don't think so. You just have to be very careful, and pay attention to the right things (ESD, cut the power, short circuits, etc). Secondly, the diagnostic needs to be correct. Multiple faillures is unlikely if there is no external cause (surge, flooding...) or cascading failures. Both of the above points can be solved with good documentation. I've seen very good servicing manuals, this is part of the reason I prefer thinkpads these days (though they could always contain more details...). With good servicing instructions, I've been able to perform repairs in no time on things I didn't know much about.
    - jhrozek 6y ago
      I think your reply shows that you are already very skilled. Other comments mentioned replacing a diode -- I know what a diode is conceptually, but I have no idea how does it look in the appliance, where would I buy a new one or how to replace it. Being as clueless as I am, my only option is to call a proffessional. Sometimes it is worth it -- I had a fan on my MacBook replaced for ~700 SEK which is a fraction of the price, but sometimes it's not. Our 1 y/o kitchen oven bought from IKEA started malfunctioning, so we called one of the repair centers they subcontract repairs to. They sent us an invoice by accident even though the oven was covered by a warranty and I couldn't believe my eyes. The cost of the new oven was IIRC ~5000 SEK (~500 USD), but the repair was over 4500 SEK, 3k for the replacement part (!?!) and 1500 for the repairman to come and do their job. I didn't know the cost upfront and I guess they wouldn't have told me an estimate without looking at the oven, at which point I would have to pay the labour cost anyway.. So sadly, given the cost, I would have probably opted for just buying a new item if the faulty one is out of warranty..
ed_balls 6y ago
> When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace In a lot of cases it's not, but people don't want to troubleshoot or 3rd part makes more money by replacing it. I try to fix my suff not for economical reasons, but environmental. In many instances I also save time as well. A few examples: - car service wanted to replace windshield wipers on my car. I took a piece of sandpaper and cleaned up wax and oxidised rubber. They could last an extra year. - Microwave stopped working. I cleaned up the connector to the magnetron. I took me less time than buying a new one. - Plumbing under the sink. Pretty sure the plumber would like to replace everything and charge me a lot, plus it would take a few hours to find a guy, book him and be at home at that time. I think I save about 10h and over $500 per year. It's often fun to replace something.
- HPsquared 6y ago
  I agree on the time thing, if you have the inclination it's often easier/faster to just fix something, rather than all the hassle of replacing it (not even counting the monetary saving)
kumarharsh 6y ago
I thought the same too, until recently. We had an old mixer-grinder which ran for a decade or so. After it broke down, I went to an official repair shop, and they quoted an amount which make buying a new one a better option. So we did - from different company. It turned out that the new one constantly gave us problems, but we stuck with it for years. And one day while cleaning up our home, we found the old mixer and gave it to our domestic help to keep if she could get it repaired. She did get it repaired. For less than a DOLLAR! And it still runs better than the new-fangled mixer.
simion314 6y ago
I had my fridge repaired this summer. A repair person come with his car and tools at my home, spent 2 hours to find and fix the fridge and I think it costed me less then 20% of the fridge full price. It is a real waste to throw a good fridge engine because the doors is not closing properly or a pipe is leaking some gas. I live in Romania so this might not apply to other places so your experience is localized not global, and with an expensive enough product (like a super expensive TV or laptop) I bet most people would want it fixed and spent the money on some other gadget.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

> When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. Depends how much you paid for it, where you live, what it means to procure one, etc. Also, cost might not be the only factor for you. Ethic, preferences, attachment or logistic can kick in.

xd 6y ago

I've repaired all my appliances myself over the last 20+ years, to say it's cheaper to replace is just plain false, even today. Most faults are easy fixes like sensors or motors and even the higher end PCB replacements work out cheaper. However! if you are not inclined to fix yourself then the costs to have someone else fix your appliances may not work out as cost effective.

knorker 6y ago
That's fine. I'd rather give an old broken fridge for free to someone who'll actually fix it, than throw it away. Like with old computer stuff. I go out of my way to find someone else who needs it, because 1) I hate the waste and environmental impact, and 2) in my poorer days I was the recipient of "old garbage computer stuff" as my only computer stuff. I had an old shitty laptop with no battery, that I found an old motorcycle lead-acid battery I could hook up. With a couple of diodes I could even charge it through the laptop. I could never afford a real laptop, but this was a computer on the go for me. A friend of mine couldn't afford batteries for his calculator, so he took a scrap power adapter and hooked it up to its battery terminals. I'm fine with someone getting $50k of tooling and then being able to create a reuse market. Better to not need it, but it's also not realistic to have a law that mandates that all electronics must be repairable with a screwdriver and a pair of plyers.

intricatedetail 6y ago

This is a myth. It used to be that tools for SMD rework were expensive and inaccessible, but now you can get a good kit with a trinocular microscope for under $1000. It is still quite a bit, but reachable if you want to start small repair business in your community. I'd say bigger problem are high taxes and bureaucracy.

mytailorisrich 6y ago

That's because this sort of legislation (in the UK and in the EU) is driven by superficial thinking and politics, not data-driven analysis and pragmatic considerations. People go "why don't they just make things simpler to repair?" like it was an obvious solution to problems (real or perceived) whereas the reality is obviously much more complex. Appliances are already quite durable and repairable. Making things 'more repairable' can increase cost and resources needed. Cost of labour and parts can quickly render repairs uneconomical even if they would be perfectly doable. Some devices are so integrated (e.g. TVs these days) that the very concept of 'repair' is almost meaningless. People do not necessarily want to repair a broken old device because there are better new ones available. These are all competing considerations and the issue is therefore complex. I would rather they focus on ease of recycling. The EU legislation has some measures on recycling but gets too much diverted by this "right to repair", IMHO.

statstutor 6y ago
> Making things 'more repairable' can increase cost and resources needed. I don't think this is in dispute, is it? The point is that manufacturers must now consider this cost in their calculations, rather than pass all the consequences on to the consumer without caring. > People do not necessarily want to repair a broken old device If the old device still has value, then both can happen - I can get a new device, and pass my old device on for repair and re-use.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  > The point is that manufacturers must now consider this cost in their calculations, rather than pass all the consequences on to the consumer without caring. If this was the goal, then simply taxing fossil fuels and other polluting sources would be the ideal and simple solution. How high would the taxes need to be? However high it takes to get pollution levels down to where they need to be. The actual cost of a new item would be properly reflected in the price, and therefore incentivize the purchasing of reusable and repairable items, which would incentivize manufacturers making reusable and repairable items. Of course, that would bring the world’s economy to a half, as governments’ expectations and calculations are assumed on continuously increasing consumption.

edent 6y ago

I repaired a new-ish TV - cost me £30. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2020/10/replacing-the-motionengine-on-a-panasonic-tv/ https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2020/10/replacing-the-motionengine-... If you can find me a new TV at that price, please let me know! Yes, getting in a professional at £X per hour means it is probably not economical to repair a cheap washing machine. But if the parts and manuals are easily available, it suddenly becomes a lot quicker and easier to repair it yourself rather than replace.

foobar33333 6y ago
The problem is you need to be highly skilled to do that repair. So many times I have ordered replacement parts and then either broken something like a plastic ribbon cable connector, or I have installed the new part and it still doesn't work.
- MayeulC 6y ago
  Highly skilled? I don't think so. You just have to be very careful, and pay attention to the right things (ESD, cut the power, short circuits, etc). Secondly, the diagnostic needs to be correct. Multiple faillures is unlikely if there is no external cause (surge, flooding...) or cascading failures. Both of the above points can be solved with good documentation. I've seen very good servicing manuals, this is part of the reason I prefer thinkpads these days (though they could always contain more details...). With good servicing instructions, I've been able to perform repairs in no time on things I didn't know much about.
  - jhrozek 6y ago
    I think your reply shows that you are already very skilled. Other comments mentioned replacing a diode -- I know what a diode is conceptually, but I have no idea how does it look in the appliance, where would I buy a new one or how to replace it. Being as clueless as I am, my only option is to call a proffessional. Sometimes it is worth it -- I had a fan on my MacBook replaced for ~700 SEK which is a fraction of the price, but sometimes it's not. Our 1 y/o kitchen oven bought from IKEA started malfunctioning, so we called one of the repair centers they subcontract repairs to. They sent us an invoice by accident even though the oven was covered by a warranty and I couldn't believe my eyes. The cost of the new oven was IIRC ~5000 SEK (~500 USD), but the repair was over 4500 SEK, 3k for the replacement part (!?!) and 1500 for the repairman to come and do their job. I didn't know the cost upfront and I guess they wouldn't have told me an estimate without looking at the oven, at which point I would have to pay the labour cost anyway.. So sadly, given the cost, I would have probably opted for just buying a new item if the faulty one is out of warranty..

ed_balls 6y ago

> When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace In a lot of cases it's not, but people don't want to troubleshoot or 3rd part makes more money by replacing it. I try to fix my suff not for economical reasons, but environmental. In many instances I also save time as well. A few examples: - car service wanted to replace windshield wipers on my car. I took a piece of sandpaper and cleaned up wax and oxidised rubber. They could last an extra year. - Microwave stopped working. I cleaned up the connector to the magnetron. I took me less time than buying a new one. - Plumbing under the sink. Pretty sure the plumber would like to replace everything and charge me a lot, plus it would take a few hours to find a guy, book him and be at home at that time. I think I save about 10h and over $500 per year. It's often fun to replace something.

HPsquared 6y ago
I agree on the time thing, if you have the inclination it's often easier/faster to just fix something, rather than all the hassle of replacing it (not even counting the monetary saving)

kumarharsh 6y ago

I thought the same too, until recently. We had an old mixer-grinder which ran for a decade or so. After it broke down, I went to an official repair shop, and they quoted an amount which make buying a new one a better option. So we did - from different company. It turned out that the new one constantly gave us problems, but we stuck with it for years. And one day while cleaning up our home, we found the old mixer and gave it to our domestic help to keep if she could get it repaired. She did get it repaired. For less than a DOLLAR! And it still runs better than the new-fangled mixer.

simion314 6y ago

I had my fridge repaired this summer. A repair person come with his car and tools at my home, spent 2 hours to find and fix the fridge and I think it costed me less then 20% of the fridge full price. It is a real waste to throw a good fridge engine because the doors is not closing properly or a pipe is leaking some gas. I live in Romania so this might not apply to other places so your experience is localized not global, and with an expensive enough product (like a super expensive TV or laptop) I bet most people would want it fixed and spent the money on some other gadget.