5 ms·

Only a matter of time before they modify the Law to introduce a catch that makes it practically worthless. A - A classification system that makes defines how "

Only a matter of time before they modify the Law to introduce a catch that makes it practically worthless. A - A classification system that makes defines how "easy" it is to repair something, but necessarily doesn't mean that you or I can repair it at home.It will be "easy" IF you have the right 50,000 GBP tool. B - Modify right to repair as good for the environment rule. There will be an escape clause that says that right to repair can be suspended, if the product is very eco-friendly (or needs specialized, exotic materials for construction). Manufacturers will take this route by claiming that they use "exotic" materials and therefoere cannot allow users to repair it at home. Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally)

intricatedetail 6y ago
I don't have high hopes if laws are essentially written by big corporations (still tax loopholes have not been closed, barriers to entry increase for small business etc)
dsnr 6y ago
> Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally) That‘s probably how the concept of „legitimate interest“ made its way into the GDPR law, make it practically worthless, with the single upside of making people more aware of cross-site tracking. Another example of half-assed EU law: EU data roaming. Given that EU is all about the free mobility of people, the data roaming „fair use policy“ makes no sense. If we‘re pretending to be in a single market, why don‘t we have a single market for telecommunication services? I can order stuff from amazon.fr and have it delivered, yet I can‘t have a mobile phone contract from say... a Spanish company.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > That‘s probably how the concept of „legitimate interest“ made its way into the GDPR law, make it practically worthless Does it though? Is there case law supporting this? From what I can see the big problem with the GDPR is a near-total failure to actually enforce it, so such questions barely even matter.
  - zaarn 6y ago
    It's mostly the Irish DPC dragging feet, from experience my own local DPC has been excellent and in one case a complaint of mine resulted in a fine. They just can't do anything about companies registered in Ireland.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      Which is also where all the major offenders are, because of tax trickery. This is starting to be really annoying.
      - zaarn 6y ago
        The solution would be a small amendment of the GDPR that local DPCs can take matters in their own hands if 1-2 years pass without the other DPC doing anything about a violation. (This would still be different from the other DPC finding there to be no violation).
  - varispeed 6y ago
    As predicted only few small players were fined and the giants continue as they please. EU can tick the box and claim PR points for "solving" the problem, when in reality you got more points of data breach and people are trained to click boxes without reading.
- pjc50 6y ago
  The EU aspires to a single market for telecommunications services but is taking a long time to get there. I found an entire master's thesis on the remaining obstacles: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278390832_Title_A_study_of_the_underlying_issues_for_the_European_Single_Market_of_Telecommunications_and_OTT_services#pfad https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278390832_Title_A_s...
kitd 6y ago
OTOH, removing things like "Warranty void if this sticker is removed" clauses means the pressure is on manufacturers to actually think carefully about how their product can be repaired.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  Those stickers are probably one of the nastiest things that exist on any hardware, anywhere..
hnhg 6y ago
Do you have any citations for your claim about EU innovation being bogged down by regulatory capture? In general, I've found that it's more like risk aversion in VC and other local cultural aspects before anything at an EU level comes into play.
- secfirstmd 6y ago
  Yeh I agree. I hear this a lot but my experience working has been that the US has waaaaayyyy more redtape and regulation stuff to deal with. Taxes for example or the absolute mess of applying for government grants.
  - zepto 6y ago
    I have experience in both places. Taxes and government grants are pretty much the main areas where this is true. Taxes especially. Not so for other things, in my experience.
- draklor40 6y ago
  Used to work for a small Ad-Tech firm in Germany. GDPR massively dented the business WITH NO BENEFITS to privacy. Advertisers still collect shit tons of data, your website performance is still crappy and the end result was that EU users now have to navigate MBs of Javascript popups, that try to trick me into selling data using dark patterns (blue highlight on accept all instead of Reject all). All it succeeded was in consolidating the ad-tech space into a few big players and resulted in acquisitions of many small ad-tech firms. An acquaintance of mine started a medical Tech firm and is now a consultant for dealing with govt. rules on medical stuff. Not sure why he quit , but I believe that consulting for dealing with German/EU bureaucracy maybe far more lucrative than having a medical startup in the EU. Not to mention, despite the first world status, internet is Germany is Dog-shit. I mean worse than 3rd world crap. I was in Bangalore and I had way better internet 3 years ago.
  - brnt 6y ago
    Getting bogged down by the GDPR isn't demonstrating regulatory capture, just that the policy had a real impact (which may be what people actually want, even if that means it's a hassle for business). If anything, it's a demonstration the EU, on this point, was not captured by vested interests: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regulatory-capture.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regulatory-capture.asp
blub 6y ago
If everybody were such a pessimist, we'd never try to improve anything because there's a risk it might not always work or need adjustment in the future. And a certain someone would also be there telling everyone not to go outside of the cave because there's tigers :)
- slx26 6y ago
  If everybody was such an optimist... well, they would eventually become pessimists when they realized good intentions alone aren't enough, but there are few optimists with good plans. Ok, there are also very few pessimists with good plans, but I didn't mean to turn you into a pessimist now ;)
bluesign 6y ago
Spare parts will be the biggest problem (especially pricing).
CivBase 6y ago
> A - A classification system that makes defines how "easy" it is to repair something, but necessarily doesn't mean that you or I can repair it at home.It will be "easy" IF you have the right 50,000 GBP tool. Louis Rossmann did a video tearing apart France's recent implementation of this from the perspective of an Apple repair technician. Despite serialized parts, soldered/glued components, and no available schematics, the MacBook Pro got a pretty good repair-ability score (7/10) because it was easy to open the chassis. Meanwhile, Apple certified repair partners (repair professionals, in theory) are so handicapped by the company that they can basically only replace screens and batteries. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7vdk_X5W4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7vdk_X5W4
- draklor40 6y ago
  > Despite serialized parts, soldered/glued components, and no available schematics, the MacBook Pro got a pretty good repair-ability score (7/10) because it was easy to open the chassis. Meanwhile, Apple certified repair partners (repair professionals, in theory) are so handicapped by the company that they can basically only replace screens and batteries. This is precisely my point. It has a 7/10 rating yet, serialized parts (probably locked down firmware as well) no availability of parts GLUE. How dafuq is this exactly repairable, by you or I ?
- peterlk 6y ago
  I think this pretty well sums up the loophole. You have the right to repair... what? If I buy a macbook, do I get to replace the case? keyboard? These seem pretty reasonable. But what about the right to replace/repair the L1 cache? This is obviously a different story - it would be nice, but the part probably isn't manufactured by Apple (maybe it is on the new Silicon?). My point is that at some point, things start to get blurry, and it is in the manufacturers best interest to continue blurring these lines. I don't think we can reasonably expect the government to do a deep dive into every product category to work all of this out - what would this look like for cars, where safety is a concern? I think having the law on the books is a move in the right direction, but I don't expect it to have teeth until te can figure out how to actually measure repairability. Maybe the EU could experiment with a supply chain approach like VAT, but for a repairability score? This also sounds fraught...
Zenst 6y ago
> Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally) I share your scepticism about lobbying, was always mindful that Brussels in regards to the EU made lobbiests access to MEP's easier than the people they serve and all in one location - a lobbiyst dream that. So be interesting how the EU and UK versions of this law diverge over time. But however cynical I am, it's better than what we have now and from that, a start. How it goes from there will be future changes and debate down the line. I certainly hope the whole green/eco/responsible ethos is used to drive thru improvements like this and shift away from disposable, cheap, just engineered enough to last a few years when a bit of extra cost would of made it last longer.

intricatedetail 6y ago

I don't have high hopes if laws are essentially written by big corporations (still tax loopholes have not been closed, barriers to entry increase for small business etc)

dsnr 6y ago

> Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally) That‘s probably how the concept of „legitimate interest“ made its way into the GDPR law, make it practically worthless, with the single upside of making people more aware of cross-site tracking. Another example of half-assed EU law: EU data roaming. Given that EU is all about the free mobility of people, the data roaming „fair use policy“ makes no sense. If we‘re pretending to be in a single market, why don‘t we have a single market for telecommunication services? I can order stuff from amazon.fr and have it delivered, yet I can‘t have a mobile phone contract from say... a Spanish company.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> That‘s probably how the concept of „legitimate interest“ made its way into the GDPR law, make it practically worthless Does it though? Is there case law supporting this? From what I can see the big problem with the GDPR is a near-total failure to actually enforce it, so such questions barely even matter.
- zaarn 6y ago
  It's mostly the Irish DPC dragging feet, from experience my own local DPC has been excellent and in one case a complaint of mine resulted in a fine. They just can't do anything about companies registered in Ireland.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Which is also where all the major offenders are, because of tax trickery. This is starting to be really annoying.
    - zaarn 6y ago
      The solution would be a small amendment of the GDPR that local DPCs can take matters in their own hands if 1-2 years pass without the other DPC doing anything about a violation. (This would still be different from the other DPC finding there to be no violation).
- varispeed 6y ago
  As predicted only few small players were fined and the giants continue as they please. EU can tick the box and claim PR points for "solving" the problem, when in reality you got more points of data breach and people are trained to click boxes without reading.
pjc50 6y ago
The EU aspires to a single market for telecommunications services but is taking a long time to get there. I found an entire master's thesis on the remaining obstacles: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278390832_Title_A_study_of_the_underlying_issues_for_the_European_Single_Market_of_Telecommunications_and_OTT_services#pfad https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278390832_Title_A_s...

kitd 6y ago

OTOH, removing things like "Warranty void if this sticker is removed" clauses means the pressure is on manufacturers to actually think carefully about how their product can be repaired.

marshmallow_12 6y ago
Those stickers are probably one of the nastiest things that exist on any hardware, anywhere..

hnhg 6y ago

Do you have any citations for your claim about EU innovation being bogged down by regulatory capture? In general, I've found that it's more like risk aversion in VC and other local cultural aspects before anything at an EU level comes into play.

secfirstmd 6y ago
Yeh I agree. I hear this a lot but my experience working has been that the US has waaaaayyyy more redtape and regulation stuff to deal with. Taxes for example or the absolute mess of applying for government grants.
- zepto 6y ago
  I have experience in both places. Taxes and government grants are pretty much the main areas where this is true. Taxes especially. Not so for other things, in my experience.
draklor40 6y ago
Used to work for a small Ad-Tech firm in Germany. GDPR massively dented the business WITH NO BENEFITS to privacy. Advertisers still collect shit tons of data, your website performance is still crappy and the end result was that EU users now have to navigate MBs of Javascript popups, that try to trick me into selling data using dark patterns (blue highlight on accept all instead of Reject all). All it succeeded was in consolidating the ad-tech space into a few big players and resulted in acquisitions of many small ad-tech firms. An acquaintance of mine started a medical Tech firm and is now a consultant for dealing with govt. rules on medical stuff. Not sure why he quit , but I believe that consulting for dealing with German/EU bureaucracy maybe far more lucrative than having a medical startup in the EU. Not to mention, despite the first world status, internet is Germany is Dog-shit. I mean worse than 3rd world crap. I was in Bangalore and I had way better internet 3 years ago.
- brnt 6y ago
  Getting bogged down by the GDPR isn't demonstrating regulatory capture, just that the policy had a real impact (which may be what people actually want, even if that means it's a hassle for business). If anything, it's a demonstration the EU, on this point, was not captured by vested interests: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regulatory-capture.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regulatory-capture.asp

blub 6y ago

If everybody were such a pessimist, we'd never try to improve anything because there's a risk it might not always work or need adjustment in the future. And a certain someone would also be there telling everyone not to go outside of the cave because there's tigers :)

slx26 6y ago
If everybody was such an optimist... well, they would eventually become pessimists when they realized good intentions alone aren't enough, but there are few optimists with good plans. Ok, there are also very few pessimists with good plans, but I didn't mean to turn you into a pessimist now ;)

bluesign 6y ago

Spare parts will be the biggest problem (especially pricing).

CivBase 6y ago

> A - A classification system that makes defines how "easy" it is to repair something, but necessarily doesn't mean that you or I can repair it at home.It will be "easy" IF you have the right 50,000 GBP tool. Louis Rossmann did a video tearing apart France's recent implementation of this from the perspective of an Apple repair technician. Despite serialized parts, soldered/glued components, and no available schematics, the MacBook Pro got a pretty good repair-ability score (7/10) because it was easy to open the chassis. Meanwhile, Apple certified repair partners (repair professionals, in theory) are so handicapped by the company that they can basically only replace screens and batteries. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7vdk_X5W4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7vdk_X5W4

draklor40 6y ago
> Despite serialized parts, soldered/glued components, and no available schematics, the MacBook Pro got a pretty good repair-ability score (7/10) because it was easy to open the chassis. Meanwhile, Apple certified repair partners (repair professionals, in theory) are so handicapped by the company that they can basically only replace screens and batteries. This is precisely my point. It has a 7/10 rating yet, serialized parts (probably locked down firmware as well) no availability of parts GLUE. How dafuq is this exactly repairable, by you or I ?
peterlk 6y ago
I think this pretty well sums up the loophole. You have the right to repair... what? If I buy a macbook, do I get to replace the case? keyboard? These seem pretty reasonable. But what about the right to replace/repair the L1 cache? This is obviously a different story - it would be nice, but the part probably isn't manufactured by Apple (maybe it is on the new Silicon?). My point is that at some point, things start to get blurry, and it is in the manufacturers best interest to continue blurring these lines. I don't think we can reasonably expect the government to do a deep dive into every product category to work all of this out - what would this look like for cars, where safety is a concern? I think having the law on the books is a move in the right direction, but I don't expect it to have teeth until te can figure out how to actually measure repairability. Maybe the EU could experiment with a supply chain approach like VAT, but for a repairability score? This also sounds fraught...

Zenst 6y ago

> Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally) I share your scepticism about lobbying, was always mindful that Brussels in regards to the EU made lobbiests access to MEP's easier than the people they serve and all in one location - a lobbiyst dream that. So be interesting how the EU and UK versions of this law diverge over time. But however cynical I am, it's better than what we have now and from that, a start. How it goes from there will be future changes and debate down the line. I certainly hope the whole green/eco/responsible ethos is used to drive thru improvements like this and shift away from disposable, cheap, just engineered enough to last a few years when a bit of extra cost would of made it last longer.