18 ms·

UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

234 points by djaychela 6y ago

retSava 6y ago
Hopefully such things bring forced availability of rare spare parts. If cookie cutter capacitors break, that's nothing really since you can just order them on Mouser et al. But if a more special part breaks, say a custom voltage regulator to a game console (just since I saw a video on that fail yesterday), I would like for a repair center to be able to buy one such for a reasonable price and have the 500$ console repaired for perhaps 100$ - not scrap it.
- maxbaines 6y ago
  I fear the replacement parts for such a repair will be the entire power supply pcb or enclosure as oppose to the discrete failed components. Therefore complying with the law but likely still expensive compared to new.
- 5h 6y ago
  I suspect the multitude of little plastic catches, clips, switches, levers etc that everything contains now are the major source of appliances being junked.
- alias_neo 6y ago
  My ~£300 Tannoy powered subwoofer for my home theatre failed recently. They refused to honour the 10 year warranty because my proof of purchase wasn't in the right format or some such. Surely proof is proof? I paid the same money as everyone else. Well, luckily for me, I have a degree in Electronic Engineering, so a week or so of reverse engineering and a few hundred £s in test equipment later I replaced the 20p Schottky diode which has failed and I have a working sub. First manufacturers need to put their money where their mouth is regarding warranties, not have stupid obtuse get out clauses. Secondly, fuck Tannoy, and all associated brands, they just lost a customer for life over this, so much for buying "British" as a Brit, I'll vote with my wallet. Taking brand suggestions for future purchases who treat their customers a little better.
  - bloqs 6y ago
    I can't verify this, other than via the stories specifics make it sound believable, and I've had similar experiences elsewhere. I too will never buy a tannoy product again.
- detritus 6y ago
  The door shelves in our crappy fridge at home have all gradually cracked and split and are held in place by messes of superglue and transparent Gorilla tape. Fed up with this, I priced up replacing them last week. It'll be cheaper to buy a new fridge. They're just crappy moulded plastic
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Part of that cost is molded plastic is cheap only while you have the molds. Once the fridge goes out of production they make a few for spares and then recycle the molds. The solution to this is to address how spare parts must be handled. This is not easy, either you figure expected lifetime of the shelves vs rest of the fridge, and then order enough - but if you get it wrong you are still out. Or you keep the molds, which also implies equipment to use the molds - but that wears out over time as well and the new model might not use the old molds.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      I would think producing spares after end of production would be expensive even if you kept the molds around.
      - bluGill 6y ago
        One is expensive, but most of the costs is setup/teardown so you just produce a bunch (perhaps 1000) for the warehouse when supply runs low. That is how companies that keep their molds function, but you pay for them to store the mold and have a warehouse with all the supply in, so spare parts are always a lot more expensive after full production has stopped. Don't confuse spare parts with maintenance parts. If there are wear parts (filters, bearings...) that are expected to be replaced regularly there is a lot more turn over of the parts, and so everything is planned ahead around keeping the right amount of production going. These parts tend to be more industry standard parts bought off the shelf from a supplier that has other customers for the same part so your part order might go to the supplier who just puts a different label on the standard part and ships it to you.
    - 6y ago
- luxuryballs 6y ago
  This kind of stuff is how government “incentives” end up essentially banning devices with such fancy parts because the companies will realize complying would be taking a loss so they just stop participating.
  - abainbridge 6y ago
    I think the EU regs have tried to avoid that by specifying the requirements of spares availability case by case. For example, the requirements for washing machines are in C(2019) 2124, annex II. It says: manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives of household washing machines and household washer-dryers shall make available to professional repairers at least the following spare parts, for a minimum period of ten years after placing the last unit of the model on the market: * motor and motor brushes; * transmission between motor and drum; * pumps; * shock absorbers and springs; * washing drum, drum spider and related ball bearings (separately or bundled); * heaters and heating elements, including heat pumps (separately or bundled); * piping and related equipment including all hoses, valves, filters and aquastops (separately or bundled); * printed circuit boards;
    - luxuryballs 6y ago
      Thanks for sharing this, though I think it’s probably even worse because now they get to essentially play favorites with their regulations which is a major breeding ground for corruption.
- kmeisthax 6y ago
  We also need specific exceptions to DMCA 1201-style laws (most countries copypasted the 1201 language) to allow circumvention for repair purposes, and specifically allow distribution of circumvention tools in cases where first-party repair is no longer available. If you don't service console disc drives anymore, I should legally be able to tell everyone how to unlock their disc drives so they can be swapped with spares. (For the record: Most 1201 exceptions do NOT cover tools, under the idea that lawful circumvention will be carried out by entities that can do their own RE work.)
golemiprague 6y ago
That will make everything more expensive since manufacturers will have to have a huge stock of spare parts, probably most of them are not going to be used ever. Why can't they just make a rule that people can fix things and that's it. The whole problem is not with spare parts to washing machines but with companies like apple not letting you open their devices intentionally, this is the problem they had to deal with. It is the same thing like this cookie message stupidity.
intricatedetail 6y ago
Would be great if they defined what is a spare part. Somehow I have a feeling that this is just a PR to shut right to repair campaigns down by saying "look we have implemented this, what else do you want?" Reality will be you still won't be able to buy individual custom ICs with their datasheets but whole PCBs at a prices only slightly cheaper than a new product.
- wiz21c 6y ago
  Shhh... You're going to give them ideas... :-) Now, at least there's a law. Then in a few years, other will want to widen that law, etc. In the end, we'll get there...
draklor40 6y ago
Only a matter of time before they modify the Law to introduce a catch that makes it practically worthless. A - A classification system that makes defines how "easy" it is to repair something, but necessarily doesn't mean that you or I can repair it at home.It will be "easy" IF you have the right 50,000 GBP tool. B - Modify right to repair as good for the environment rule. There will be an escape clause that says that right to repair can be suspended, if the product is very eco-friendly (or needs specialized, exotic materials for construction). Manufacturers will take this route by claiming that they use "exotic" materials and therefoere cannot allow users to repair it at home. Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally)
- intricatedetail 6y ago
  I don't have high hopes if laws are essentially written by big corporations (still tax loopholes have not been closed, barriers to entry increase for small business etc)
- dsnr 6y ago
  > Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally) That‘s probably how the concept of „legitimate interest“ made its way into the GDPR law, make it practically worthless, with the single upside of making people more aware of cross-site tracking. Another example of half-assed EU law: EU data roaming. Given that EU is all about the free mobility of people, the data roaming „fair use policy“ makes no sense. If we‘re pretending to be in a single market, why don‘t we have a single market for telecommunication services? I can order stuff from amazon.fr and have it delivered, yet I can‘t have a mobile phone contract from say... a Spanish company.
  - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
    > That‘s probably how the concept of „legitimate interest“ made its way into the GDPR law, make it practically worthless Does it though? Is there case law supporting this? From what I can see the big problem with the GDPR is a near-total failure to actually enforce it, so such questions barely even matter.
aboringusername 6y ago
When everything is a commodity it's hard to see how this will be useful. When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. I cannot see how repairing a TV will ever be cheaper than just replacing it since they are so cheap brand new. This also applies to smartphones, none of the popular models have replaceable batteries so in the trash they go and they become worthless, even if the hardware could keep up for 10 years often the software is outdated, inseceure and not worth using. I'll be hard pressed to believe this will result in anything tangible. The real test is if they can convince Apple to make Louis' job easier, wouldn't that be nice.
- BiteCode_dev 6y ago
  > When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. Depends how much you paid for it, where you live, what it means to procure one, etc. Also, cost might not be the only factor for you. Ethic, preferences, attachment or logistic can kick in.
- xd 6y ago
  I've repaired all my appliances myself over the last 20+ years, to say it's cheaper to replace is just plain false, even today. Most faults are easy fixes like sensors or motors and even the higher end PCB replacements work out cheaper. However! if you are not inclined to fix yourself then the costs to have someone else fix your appliances may not work out as cost effective.
  - knorker 6y ago
    That's fine. I'd rather give an old broken fridge for free to someone who'll actually fix it, than throw it away. Like with old computer stuff. I go out of my way to find someone else who needs it, because 1) I hate the waste and environmental impact, and 2) in my poorer days I was the recipient of "old garbage computer stuff" as my only computer stuff. I had an old shitty laptop with no battery, that I found an old motorcycle lead-acid battery I could hook up. With a couple of diodes I could even charge it through the laptop. I could never afford a real laptop, but this was a computer on the go for me. A friend of mine couldn't afford batteries for his calculator, so he took a scrap power adapter and hooked it up to its battery terminals. I'm fine with someone getting $50k of tooling and then being able to create a reuse market. Better to not need it, but it's also not realistic to have a law that mandates that all electronics must be repairable with a screwdriver and a pair of plyers.
aboringusername 6y ago
I think any right to repair needs to solve 2 problems: 1: Fixing bad hardware (schematics and such) 2: Fixing old/buggy/broken software that renders said hardware useless. Without open kernels, drivers, frameworks your "right to repair" is meaningless. When you install a new camera to iPhone and it complains it's not genuine because the software says so, the right to repair becomes less useful as now Apple holds all the cards as to who gets to repair and how much that costs. You need to tackle both since often times these days they work together. For example, the Open Source community should be able to tinker with my TV's kernel and other parts to add new features rather than it being locked down and features being removed because the manufacturer couldn't be bothered to pay a royalty license. What if the hardware is 100% okay but the software is broken? Is there a right to inspect the code? If not then all of these laws are redundant. All it takes is one update to "mistakenly" bork an older model or it to run a bit slower or janky animations or anything else and in the bin it goes.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  There needs to be a clause that makes the software and other designs specifications openly available (or for some small fee, not exceeding a reasonable percentage of the product's retail price), once the product is no longer supported by the manufacturer. I.e. the manufacturer has produced a newer - presumably better - device that non-technical users will want to buy, and the old devices can be handed down to more technical and tinkerer types to play around with and improve upon.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Definitely. The problem here is that manufacturers will claim that parts old of software and design specs are used in the new device, which makes them a legitimate trade secret they shouldn't be forced to reveal.
    - zepto 6y ago
      > manufacturers will claim that parts old of software and design is specs are used in the new device It’s not just ‘a claim’. I can’t think of many systems where this is not true. The iPhone still contains code from NextStep for example. I do think old (or new) hardware must be allowed to run open software, so I’d be all for mandating a ‘bootcamp’ equivalent, which did have open specs for implementers.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> Manufacturers will be legally obliged to make spare parts for products available to consumers for the first time – a new legal right for repairs. I take it that third-parties will not get any new freedoms then, and that things like design patents will continue to apply there. I wonder if the law will have anything to say about price-point, if there's no competition. I was surprised to see no mention of the matter of companies deliberately engineering their products to be hostile to user repairs. I was under the impression that forbidding that kind of thing was the main point of right-to-repair legislation. (For example, one part of the system might verify that a peripheral has some cryptographic key to prove that it's an authentic first-party part. With this technique, third-party products either don't work, or are set upon by lawyers for breaking copyright law in cloning the key.)
- foobar33333 6y ago
  These laws might not go far enough but they might be more of a threat to corporations. Corps may start making their products just friendly enough to avoid new laws which would be stricter and out of their control.
smitty1e 6y ago
Whither capitalism? Why are companies not marketing along the lines of: "You can tinker with this. Our product does not treat you like the product." I'd pay a 20% premium or so not to be spied upon and enslaved. "Freedom isn't free. There's a heavy [FLOWERBED] fee."
- krapp 6y ago
  >I'd pay a 20% premium or so not to be spied upon and enslaved. "Freedom isn't free. There's a heavy [FLOWERBED] fee." Most people wouldn't, and there's more money in proprietary lock-in and servicing than there is marketing to the tinkering fringe. Thither capitalism.
- derfitt 6y ago
  What if it was a 200% premium?
  - Mordisquitos 6y ago
    What if it was a 0% premium, because businesses unable to adapt to new regulations without increasing their prices by 20% or 200% (!) are competed out of the market by those able to be more efficient, reduce their expenditures, or cut back their profits?
  - smitty1e 6y ago
    Could be a reasonable tradeoff in context.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  Because most consumers don't want that.
  - smitty1e 6y ago
    OK, smaller market.
- SyzygistSix 6y ago
  Most people find the DIY ethic completely alien. The number of people impressed that I could make my own burritos - requiring about the same skill as making a sandwich - is pretty indicative. The numbers on adoption of the Linux desktop is another, I think.
pabs3 6y ago
Wonder if this includes a right to repair/replace software running on a device.
- superbcarrot 6y ago
  How could it possibly? Is there a way to do this without requiring all open-source software?
  - pabs3 6y ago
    The main issue is customers should have the ability to disable lockdown to install their own OS. For fixing issues, the source code could be shared with customers under a license permitting individual use/modification, but not distribution etc.
jokethrowaway 6y ago
Good luck enforcing any of this. As for hundreds other useless regulations that bog us down. For example, compare the warranty process with Apple and with any of the other laptop companies. If regulations worked you wouldn't even consider warranty to be a good selling point. Still I've been burned by warranties services so many times, threatened to report, reported to consumer report and I got nothing out of it. I don't even consider it. I just buy crap I'll try to fix myself if it breaks or I buy from a reputable company. What are the regulations doing for us then? How many companies using dark patterns in their EU imposed cookie banners have been fined?
- blub 6y ago
  Apple has been sued multiple times in the EU because of onerous warranty practices and lost. Obviously their working warranty doesn't work so great. There's at least one website tracking GDPR fines. It's gonna take a while given that everyone is illegitimately collecting data on their visitors/customers.
  - a1369209993 6y ago
    The fact that, after being sued once and doing nothing to fix it, then being sued again, for the same thing, a company is still solvent, is evidence against regulation being effective. If the regulation was effective, they'd either shape up or be bankrupted by fines.
Hani1337 6y ago
No one's gonna mention they're literally just copying the EU law that was passed last week?
- aembleton 6y ago
  It's the third sentence from the article: "They are keeping a promise to implement EU rules aimed at cutting energy and bills – and reducing the need for new materials."
aminozuur 6y ago
If you ever wondered why electronics such as Apple products cost 30% more in European countries, it's because of regulations such as these.
- hehetrthrthrjn 6y ago
  Apple gear costs more in Europe because the market will bear it. It has almost nothing to do with regulations, which almost always benefits consumers at little cost. If prices are high it's usually due to a lack of competition. Here's a couple of examples: Free international roaming for mobile phones plans in the EU has caused the price of phone plans to move very little and mostly at the rock bottom end of the scale. I bought the cheapest Kia Rio I could in 2016. It was bottom of the range (trim level) and yet it was decked out with ABS, electronic stability control and tire pressure monitoring. At least two of those things has saved me from a serious accident over the years. The only reason they were included was because they are mandated by the EU on all cars.
- spzb 6y ago
  [citation needed]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
luxuryballs 6y ago
Oh gawd what kind of bullshit is this going to lead to I wonder. An even more obtrusive physical version of how I have to click “accept cookies” all over the damn internet now? As if using a web browser wasn’t consent enough.
matthewfelgate 6y ago
It sounds good but it's going to depend on the small-print. Maybe limits of the repair costs? Being able to attempt repairs without compromising warranty would be good.
tester34 6y ago
Did shitton of HNers recently turned into being paid by $BIG_CORPO? oh wait, they actually are. I'm shocked by that negative response
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  Top comment being a dunk on the GDPR by an ex Ad-Tech employee is peak HN.
nanna 6y ago
ifixit has only ever given two phones 10/10 in its repairability scores, the Fairphone 2 and 3, and only one other phone has scored above 7 since 2017. What we really need is system to seriously penalise manufacturers until they fundamentally change practices. https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability?sort=score https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability?sort=score
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  I love ifixit. I think they overdid it a bit with the fairphone, but it's a great tool.
Proven 6y ago
1) it's not a right 2) it's yet another tax on all those who prefer cheaper products that aren't DIY serviceable
penguin_booze 6y ago
I had to get a couple of appliances repaired recently. The handy man charges a minimum of 50 GBP per hour. Established and organized business charge upwards of 100 as a call-out charge alone (parts extra). If it's a non-trivial electronic repair, the spare would cost 150+ (and they're allowed to mark up prices as they please). Now add all that up, and a sweet 20% VAT on top, and voila, that's nearly how much a new one costs, plus it comes with n years of warranty; even better, I get the opportunity buy extended warranty. What I didn't mention is the waiting time for someone to visit in the first place. Essentially, it's economical and sensible to get at most one repair on an appliance done. If it's an appliance on which you depend daily, you might not be in a position to wait to get it repaired. Solution: get a new one. Nearly same cost; no wait; new features. Plus, they'll also take away your old one, and may even give you a discount. Summary: I'm skeptical this changes anything.
- Varriount 6y ago
  I have to wonder - was repairing (rather than replacing) appliances cheaper in the past? If so, is there a clear cause on why repair prices have changed?
  - tpmx 6y ago
    Appliances are comparatively cheaper now because production has been moved to low-wage countries. And also because of productivity increases from automation. It's harder to move the repair to low-wage countries or to automate it.
  - Cosmin_C 6y ago
    Not necessarily cheaper but much easier. Plus, it was convenient as new appliances were quite a lot more expensive (and may I add much more durable). Nowadays trying to repair an appliance you run into all sorts of issues like missing schematics (and it's much harder to make out what does what on a logic board of a washing machine for example), low parts availability + serialized parts + firmware locks (this is mostly Apple though). My issue is that new stuff doesn't really seem to be made to last. My last washing machine lasted exactly warranty + 7 days. Meanwhile, mum still has a washing machine close to 30 years old which still works great (with some repairs every few years with super cheap parts). And nowadays it's mostly plastic with a dash of metal instead of the other way around (unless you like moving the washing machine every week the "but it's lighter" argument is moot)
helloguillecl 6y ago
I think many of us are ignoring the environmental impact and hassle derived from the act of having to buy new instead of repairing: - Found out what happened in the first place. - Looking for a new model you like since the one you already had and liked doesn't exist anymore. Price compare. Get it delivered and possibly wait a few days. - Possibly the appliance must be installed by a technician. Arrange an appointment for that. - Set up the machine and get everyone to learn how to use the appliance. - Find out that some things don't work as they used to. - Dispose the plastics, papers from the packaging. - Scan the new manual for your records. - Dispose the old appliance in a proper way (electronic trash must be disposed in other facilities than the packaging) - Repeat. This is about giving the possibility of repairs. The consumer is to decide what is economically posible, but I think a lot of possibilities might open up, like remote-assisted repairs and tutorials.
oleganza 6y ago
If the original problem is "people consume too much short-lived plastic crap", then maybe let's address the root cause, rather than placing a band-aid of DIY fixing things that keep breaking. For instance, how about having more people buy more expensive / longer-living stuff that does not pile up on landfills in an economy where money is sound, people are encouraged to save it and buy better quality and longer living stuff, thus incentivizing investment in lengthier R&D and supply chains and generally being more thoughtful about the longer-term effects like ecology rather than how to keep up with mortgage and other debt, living from paycheck to paycheck. (Pro tip: Bitcoin.)

234 points by djaychela 6y ago

Hopefully such things bring forced availability of rare spare parts. If cookie cutter capacitors break, that's nothing really since you can just order them on Mouser et al. But if a more special part breaks, say a custom voltage regulator to a game console (just since I saw a video on that fail yesterday), I would like for a repair center to be able to buy one such for a reasonable price and have the 500$ console repaired for perhaps 100$ - not scrap it.

maxbaines 6y ago
I fear the replacement parts for such a repair will be the entire power supply pcb or enclosure as oppose to the discrete failed components. Therefore complying with the law but likely still expensive compared to new.
5h 6y ago
I suspect the multitude of little plastic catches, clips, switches, levers etc that everything contains now are the major source of appliances being junked.
alias_neo 6y ago
My ~£300 Tannoy powered subwoofer for my home theatre failed recently. They refused to honour the 10 year warranty because my proof of purchase wasn't in the right format or some such. Surely proof is proof? I paid the same money as everyone else. Well, luckily for me, I have a degree in Electronic Engineering, so a week or so of reverse engineering and a few hundred £s in test equipment later I replaced the 20p Schottky diode which has failed and I have a working sub. First manufacturers need to put their money where their mouth is regarding warranties, not have stupid obtuse get out clauses. Secondly, fuck Tannoy, and all associated brands, they just lost a customer for life over this, so much for buying "British" as a Brit, I'll vote with my wallet. Taking brand suggestions for future purchases who treat their customers a little better.
- bloqs 6y ago
  I can't verify this, other than via the stories specifics make it sound believable, and I've had similar experiences elsewhere. I too will never buy a tannoy product again.
detritus 6y ago
The door shelves in our crappy fridge at home have all gradually cracked and split and are held in place by messes of superglue and transparent Gorilla tape. Fed up with this, I priced up replacing them last week. It'll be cheaper to buy a new fridge. They're just crappy moulded plastic
- bluGill 6y ago
  Part of that cost is molded plastic is cheap only while you have the molds. Once the fridge goes out of production they make a few for spares and then recycle the molds. The solution to this is to address how spare parts must be handled. This is not easy, either you figure expected lifetime of the shelves vs rest of the fridge, and then order enough - but if you get it wrong you are still out. Or you keep the molds, which also implies equipment to use the molds - but that wears out over time as well and the new model might not use the old molds.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    I would think producing spares after end of production would be expensive even if you kept the molds around.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      One is expensive, but most of the costs is setup/teardown so you just produce a bunch (perhaps 1000) for the warehouse when supply runs low. That is how companies that keep their molds function, but you pay for them to store the mold and have a warehouse with all the supply in, so spare parts are always a lot more expensive after full production has stopped. Don't confuse spare parts with maintenance parts. If there are wear parts (filters, bearings...) that are expected to be replaced regularly there is a lot more turn over of the parts, and so everything is planned ahead around keeping the right amount of production going. These parts tend to be more industry standard parts bought off the shelf from a supplier that has other customers for the same part so your part order might go to the supplier who just puts a different label on the standard part and ships it to you.
  - 6y ago
luxuryballs 6y ago
This kind of stuff is how government “incentives” end up essentially banning devices with such fancy parts because the companies will realize complying would be taking a loss so they just stop participating.
- abainbridge 6y ago
  I think the EU regs have tried to avoid that by specifying the requirements of spares availability case by case. For example, the requirements for washing machines are in C(2019) 2124, annex II. It says: manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives of household washing machines and household washer-dryers shall make available to professional repairers at least the following spare parts, for a minimum period of ten years after placing the last unit of the model on the market: * motor and motor brushes; * transmission between motor and drum; * pumps; * shock absorbers and springs; * washing drum, drum spider and related ball bearings (separately or bundled); * heaters and heating elements, including heat pumps (separately or bundled); * piping and related equipment including all hoses, valves, filters and aquastops (separately or bundled); * printed circuit boards;
  - luxuryballs 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing this, though I think it’s probably even worse because now they get to essentially play favorites with their regulations which is a major breeding ground for corruption.
kmeisthax 6y ago
We also need specific exceptions to DMCA 1201-style laws (most countries copypasted the 1201 language) to allow circumvention for repair purposes, and specifically allow distribution of circumvention tools in cases where first-party repair is no longer available. If you don't service console disc drives anymore, I should legally be able to tell everyone how to unlock their disc drives so they can be swapped with spares. (For the record: Most 1201 exceptions do NOT cover tools, under the idea that lawful circumvention will be carried out by entities that can do their own RE work.)

golemiprague 6y ago

That will make everything more expensive since manufacturers will have to have a huge stock of spare parts, probably most of them are not going to be used ever. Why can't they just make a rule that people can fix things and that's it. The whole problem is not with spare parts to washing machines but with companies like apple not letting you open their devices intentionally, this is the problem they had to deal with. It is the same thing like this cookie message stupidity.

intricatedetail 6y ago

Would be great if they defined what is a spare part. Somehow I have a feeling that this is just a PR to shut right to repair campaigns down by saying "look we have implemented this, what else do you want?" Reality will be you still won't be able to buy individual custom ICs with their datasheets but whole PCBs at a prices only slightly cheaper than a new product.

wiz21c 6y ago
Shhh... You're going to give them ideas... :-) Now, at least there's a law. Then in a few years, other will want to widen that law, etc. In the end, we'll get there...

draklor40 6y ago

Only a matter of time before they modify the Law to introduce a catch that makes it practically worthless. A - A classification system that makes defines how "easy" it is to repair something, but necessarily doesn't mean that you or I can repair it at home.It will be "easy" IF you have the right 50,000 GBP tool. B - Modify right to repair as good for the environment rule. There will be an escape clause that says that right to repair can be suspended, if the product is very eco-friendly (or needs specialized, exotic materials for construction). Manufacturers will take this route by claiming that they use "exotic" materials and therefoere cannot allow users to repair it at home. Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally)

intricatedetail 6y ago
I don't have high hopes if laws are essentially written by big corporations (still tax loopholes have not been closed, barriers to entry increase for small business etc)
dsnr 6y ago
> Given how much of EU innovation is bogged down by regulatory capture, I am extremely skeptical of this (note, I know EU/UK are separated, but nevertheless, lobbying is lobbying, universally) That‘s probably how the concept of „legitimate interest“ made its way into the GDPR law, make it practically worthless, with the single upside of making people more aware of cross-site tracking. Another example of half-assed EU law: EU data roaming. Given that EU is all about the free mobility of people, the data roaming „fair use policy“ makes no sense. If we‘re pretending to be in a single market, why don‘t we have a single market for telecommunication services? I can order stuff from amazon.fr and have it delivered, yet I can‘t have a mobile phone contract from say... a Spanish company.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > That‘s probably how the concept of „legitimate interest“ made its way into the GDPR law, make it practically worthless Does it though? Is there case law supporting this? From what I can see the big problem with the GDPR is a near-total failure to actually enforce it, so such questions barely even matter.

aboringusername 6y ago

When everything is a commodity it's hard to see how this will be useful. When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. I cannot see how repairing a TV will ever be cheaper than just replacing it since they are so cheap brand new. This also applies to smartphones, none of the popular models have replaceable batteries so in the trash they go and they become worthless, even if the hardware could keep up for 10 years often the software is outdated, inseceure and not worth using. I'll be hard pressed to believe this will result in anything tangible. The real test is if they can convince Apple to make Louis' job easier, wouldn't that be nice.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago
> When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. Depends how much you paid for it, where you live, what it means to procure one, etc. Also, cost might not be the only factor for you. Ethic, preferences, attachment or logistic can kick in.
xd 6y ago
I've repaired all my appliances myself over the last 20+ years, to say it's cheaper to replace is just plain false, even today. Most faults are easy fixes like sensors or motors and even the higher end PCB replacements work out cheaper. However! if you are not inclined to fix yourself then the costs to have someone else fix your appliances may not work out as cost effective.
- knorker 6y ago
  That's fine. I'd rather give an old broken fridge for free to someone who'll actually fix it, than throw it away. Like with old computer stuff. I go out of my way to find someone else who needs it, because 1) I hate the waste and environmental impact, and 2) in my poorer days I was the recipient of "old garbage computer stuff" as my only computer stuff. I had an old shitty laptop with no battery, that I found an old motorcycle lead-acid battery I could hook up. With a couple of diodes I could even charge it through the laptop. I could never afford a real laptop, but this was a computer on the go for me. A friend of mine couldn't afford batteries for his calculator, so he took a scrap power adapter and hooked it up to its battery terminals. I'm fine with someone getting $50k of tooling and then being able to create a reuse market. Better to not need it, but it's also not realistic to have a law that mandates that all electronics must be repairable with a screwdriver and a pair of plyers.

aboringusername 6y ago

I think any right to repair needs to solve 2 problems: 1: Fixing bad hardware (schematics and such) 2: Fixing old/buggy/broken software that renders said hardware useless. Without open kernels, drivers, frameworks your "right to repair" is meaningless. When you install a new camera to iPhone and it complains it's not genuine because the software says so, the right to repair becomes less useful as now Apple holds all the cards as to who gets to repair and how much that costs. You need to tackle both since often times these days they work together. For example, the Open Source community should be able to tinker with my TV's kernel and other parts to add new features rather than it being locked down and features being removed because the manufacturer couldn't be bothered to pay a royalty license. What if the hardware is 100% okay but the software is broken? Is there a right to inspect the code? If not then all of these laws are redundant. All it takes is one update to "mistakenly" bork an older model or it to run a bit slower or janky animations or anything else and in the bin it goes.

KozmoNau7 6y ago
There needs to be a clause that makes the software and other designs specifications openly available (or for some small fee, not exceeding a reasonable percentage of the product's retail price), once the product is no longer supported by the manufacturer. I.e. the manufacturer has produced a newer - presumably better - device that non-technical users will want to buy, and the old devices can be handed down to more technical and tinkerer types to play around with and improve upon.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Definitely. The problem here is that manufacturers will claim that parts old of software and design specs are used in the new device, which makes them a legitimate trade secret they shouldn't be forced to reveal.
  - zepto 6y ago
    > manufacturers will claim that parts old of software and design is specs are used in the new device It’s not just ‘a claim’. I can’t think of many systems where this is not true. The iPhone still contains code from NextStep for example. I do think old (or new) hardware must be allowed to run open software, so I’d be all for mandating a ‘bootcamp’ equivalent, which did have open specs for implementers.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago

> Manufacturers will be legally obliged to make spare parts for products available to consumers for the first time – a new legal right for repairs. I take it that third-parties will not get any new freedoms then, and that things like design patents will continue to apply there. I wonder if the law will have anything to say about price-point, if there's no competition. I was surprised to see no mention of the matter of companies deliberately engineering their products to be hostile to user repairs. I was under the impression that forbidding that kind of thing was the main point of right-to-repair legislation. (For example, one part of the system might verify that a peripheral has some cryptographic key to prove that it's an authentic first-party part. With this technique, third-party products either don't work, or are set upon by lawyers for breaking copyright law in cloning the key.)

foobar33333 6y ago
These laws might not go far enough but they might be more of a threat to corporations. Corps may start making their products just friendly enough to avoid new laws which would be stricter and out of their control.

smitty1e 6y ago

Whither capitalism? Why are companies not marketing along the lines of: "You can tinker with this. Our product does not treat you like the product." I'd pay a 20% premium or so not to be spied upon and enslaved. "Freedom isn't free. There's a heavy [FLOWERBED] fee."

krapp 6y ago
>I'd pay a 20% premium or so not to be spied upon and enslaved. "Freedom isn't free. There's a heavy [FLOWERBED] fee." Most people wouldn't, and there's more money in proprietary lock-in and servicing than there is marketing to the tinkering fringe. Thither capitalism.
derfitt 6y ago
What if it was a 200% premium?
- Mordisquitos 6y ago
  What if it was a 0% premium, because businesses unable to adapt to new regulations without increasing their prices by 20% or 200% (!) are competed out of the market by those able to be more efficient, reduce their expenditures, or cut back their profits?
- smitty1e 6y ago
  Could be a reasonable tradeoff in context.
missedthecue 6y ago
Because most consumers don't want that.
- smitty1e 6y ago
  OK, smaller market.
SyzygistSix 6y ago
Most people find the DIY ethic completely alien. The number of people impressed that I could make my own burritos - requiring about the same skill as making a sandwich - is pretty indicative. The numbers on adoption of the Linux desktop is another, I think.

pabs3 6y ago

Wonder if this includes a right to repair/replace software running on a device.

superbcarrot 6y ago
How could it possibly? Is there a way to do this without requiring all open-source software?
- pabs3 6y ago
  The main issue is customers should have the ability to disable lockdown to install their own OS. For fixing issues, the source code could be shared with customers under a license permitting individual use/modification, but not distribution etc.

jokethrowaway 6y ago

Good luck enforcing any of this. As for hundreds other useless regulations that bog us down. For example, compare the warranty process with Apple and with any of the other laptop companies. If regulations worked you wouldn't even consider warranty to be a good selling point. Still I've been burned by warranties services so many times, threatened to report, reported to consumer report and I got nothing out of it. I don't even consider it. I just buy crap I'll try to fix myself if it breaks or I buy from a reputable company. What are the regulations doing for us then? How many companies using dark patterns in their EU imposed cookie banners have been fined?

blub 6y ago
Apple has been sued multiple times in the EU because of onerous warranty practices and lost. Obviously their working warranty doesn't work so great. There's at least one website tracking GDPR fines. It's gonna take a while given that everyone is illegitimately collecting data on their visitors/customers.
- a1369209993 6y ago
  The fact that, after being sued once and doing nothing to fix it, then being sued again, for the same thing, a company is still solvent, is evidence against regulation being effective. If the regulation was effective, they'd either shape up or be bankrupted by fines.

Hani1337 6y ago

No one's gonna mention they're literally just copying the EU law that was passed last week?

aembleton 6y ago
It's the third sentence from the article: "They are keeping a promise to implement EU rules aimed at cutting energy and bills – and reducing the need for new materials."

aminozuur 6y ago

If you ever wondered why electronics such as Apple products cost 30% more in European countries, it's because of regulations such as these.

hehetrthrthrjn 6y ago
Apple gear costs more in Europe because the market will bear it. It has almost nothing to do with regulations, which almost always benefits consumers at little cost. If prices are high it's usually due to a lack of competition. Here's a couple of examples: Free international roaming for mobile phones plans in the EU has caused the price of phone plans to move very little and mostly at the rock bottom end of the scale. I bought the cheapest Kia Rio I could in 2016. It was bottom of the range (trim level) and yet it was decked out with ABS, electronic stability control and tire pressure monitoring. At least two of those things has saved me from a serious accident over the years. The only reason they were included was because they are mandated by the EU on all cars.
spzb 6y ago
[citation needed]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

luxuryballs 6y ago

Oh gawd what kind of bullshit is this going to lead to I wonder. An even more obtrusive physical version of how I have to click “accept cookies” all over the damn internet now? As if using a web browser wasn’t consent enough.

matthewfelgate 6y ago

It sounds good but it's going to depend on the small-print. Maybe limits of the repair costs? Being able to attempt repairs without compromising warranty would be good.

tester34 6y ago

Did shitton of HNers recently turned into being paid by $BIG_CORPO? oh wait, they actually are. I'm shocked by that negative response

ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
Top comment being a dunk on the GDPR by an ex Ad-Tech employee is peak HN.

nanna 6y ago

ifixit has only ever given two phones 10/10 in its repairability scores, the Fairphone 2 and 3, and only one other phone has scored above 7 since 2017. What we really need is system to seriously penalise manufacturers until they fundamentally change practices. https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability?sort=score https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability?sort=score

marshmallow_12 6y ago
I love ifixit. I think they overdid it a bit with the fairphone, but it's a great tool.

Proven 6y ago

1) it's not a right 2) it's yet another tax on all those who prefer cheaper products that aren't DIY serviceable

penguin_booze 6y ago

I had to get a couple of appliances repaired recently. The handy man charges a minimum of 50 GBP per hour. Established and organized business charge upwards of 100 as a call-out charge alone (parts extra). If it's a non-trivial electronic repair, the spare would cost 150+ (and they're allowed to mark up prices as they please). Now add all that up, and a sweet 20% VAT on top, and voila, that's nearly how much a new one costs, plus it comes with n years of warranty; even better, I get the opportunity buy extended warranty. What I didn't mention is the waiting time for someone to visit in the first place. Essentially, it's economical and sensible to get at most one repair on an appliance done. If it's an appliance on which you depend daily, you might not be in a position to wait to get it repaired. Solution: get a new one. Nearly same cost; no wait; new features. Plus, they'll also take away your old one, and may even give you a discount. Summary: I'm skeptical this changes anything.

Varriount 6y ago
I have to wonder - was repairing (rather than replacing) appliances cheaper in the past? If so, is there a clear cause on why repair prices have changed?
- tpmx 6y ago
  Appliances are comparatively cheaper now because production has been moved to low-wage countries. And also because of productivity increases from automation. It's harder to move the repair to low-wage countries or to automate it.
- Cosmin_C 6y ago
  Not necessarily cheaper but much easier. Plus, it was convenient as new appliances were quite a lot more expensive (and may I add much more durable). Nowadays trying to repair an appliance you run into all sorts of issues like missing schematics (and it's much harder to make out what does what on a logic board of a washing machine for example), low parts availability + serialized parts + firmware locks (this is mostly Apple though). My issue is that new stuff doesn't really seem to be made to last. My last washing machine lasted exactly warranty + 7 days. Meanwhile, mum still has a washing machine close to 30 years old which still works great (with some repairs every few years with super cheap parts). And nowadays it's mostly plastic with a dash of metal instead of the other way around (unless you like moving the washing machine every week the "but it's lighter" argument is moot)

helloguillecl 6y ago

I think many of us are ignoring the environmental impact and hassle derived from the act of having to buy new instead of repairing: - Found out what happened in the first place. - Looking for a new model you like since the one you already had and liked doesn't exist anymore. Price compare. Get it delivered and possibly wait a few days. - Possibly the appliance must be installed by a technician. Arrange an appointment for that. - Set up the machine and get everyone to learn how to use the appliance. - Find out that some things don't work as they used to. - Dispose the plastics, papers from the packaging. - Scan the new manual for your records. - Dispose the old appliance in a proper way (electronic trash must be disposed in other facilities than the packaging) - Repeat. This is about giving the possibility of repairs. The consumer is to decide what is economically posible, but I think a lot of possibilities might open up, like remote-assisted repairs and tutorials.

oleganza 6y ago

If the original problem is "people consume too much short-lived plastic crap", then maybe let's address the root cause, rather than placing a band-aid of DIY fixing things that keep breaking. For instance, how about having more people buy more expensive / longer-living stuff that does not pile up on landfills in an economy where money is sound, people are encouraged to save it and buy better quality and longer living stuff, thus incentivizing investment in lengthier R&D and supply chains and generally being more thoughtful about the longer-term effects like ecology rather than how to keep up with mortgage and other debt, living from paycheck to paycheck. (Pro tip: Bitcoin.)