5 ms·

That's a bit unfair though. I wouldn't take "great proficiency with chess" on a resume as grandmaster level.

ivalm 6y ago
To be fair, lots of people colloquially claim to be good at chess but can’t even stumble though a proper opening. The difference between say a class-a player and a rando is massive and easy to tell.
- dnh44 6y ago
  Memorising openings is also a crutch for players who aren’t that good so I’m not sure if I would use that as a benchmark for good players.
  - nathancahill 6y ago
    I feel personally attacked. But I didn't downvote you because you're not wrong.
  - supportlocal4h 6y ago
    Memorizing openings is not a crutch. It's the only path upward past a certain point. It is impossible to play competitively at, say, the 2000 level if you haven't mastered a few openings. If you want to play 800-level chess, you can have fun without knowing any set openings. Well, almost. You'd better be able to recognize and defend scholar's mate at a bare minimum. But that is a bit like being an amateur programmer who never learns what a function is. You can still enjoy programming at that level, but it's odd to describe functions as crutches.
    - jeremyjh 6y ago
      I doubt if you can play competitively at the 1600 level without knowing some opening theory. That'd be like playing against a 3200 for the first six moves and then hoping you are not worse. GP has no idea what he is talking about; it is stronger players who study theory. Weak players may/learn a few tricks/gambits, but you have to learn at least enough of those to avoid them.
  - beaconstudios 6y ago
    Memorising openings is also good for avoiding well known traps like the fried liver, fishing pole or Eric Rosen's favourite the Stafford gambit. Most strong players have a variety of book openings memorised.
  - permo-w 6y ago
    I wouldn’t agree with that. Memorising openings is something you do so that you don’t have to repeatedly calculate every tactic in a position, and to help you reach a favourable mid game Besides, once you get into the middlegame, you still need the tactical and positional skills that I suspect you consider opening knowledge a crutch for In chess (and life) it’s far easier to pattern match a solution for a position rather than coming up with a brand new solution every time In my opinion, this makes memory and experience far more important than intellect in chess, especially in the faster time formats
  - ivalm 6y ago
    There are bad players who know openings, but there an no good players who don’t know openings. Without opening theory you will just get worse middle game against any competent opponent. Furthermore, if you could just calculate everything ab inito your play would be identical to “memorized opening,” alpha zero did learn a lot of standard openings from self-play (without being shown these opening explicitly). If someone plays a “bad” opening in a serious game it’s because not only they don’t know theory but they also can’t calculate well enough.
colechristensen 6y ago
Nobody would think that though, a GM would be able to tell how bad you are lying.
alexf95 6y ago
The GM would easily figure out at what chess level he is though. No one expecting him to beat the GM of course.
- DocTomoe 6y ago
  The point is that that still is pretty meaningless. You can enjoy a game of chess even if you are not very good at it, much like you can enjoy a game of golf for the aspect of walking around in a well-kept park and having a chat, and see some improvement in your handicap over time. I would not expect someone who puts chess on a resume to play competitively, which is a whole different beast.
  - LudwigNagasena 6y ago
    Sure, only like 100 top GMs can play competitively, but there are over 1000 GMs who do it as a hobby while they work at Google, Microsoft or any other company.
  - bidirectional 6y ago
    But it's impossible to play chess or golf at even the most leisurely level without improving at least a little, as you say with handicap. I'm sure an expert can tell the difference between an earnest hobbyist and someone who learnt the rules as a child but hasn't played since.
hangonhn 6y ago
But how Dunning Kruger are you to put that down? Like chess has a pretty well known rating system that even a moderately interested player would know about. So in the case of chess you can’t even claim that you didn’t know you are not that great. You can put down you’re decent at Java or C++ or Python and actually be not that great at it because you have nothing to measure against. But in chess there is a rating system. So you ought to know if you are truly remarkable or not. If you think you are remarkable enough to put it down and then suck at it, how ignorant must you be?! And more importantly, that ignorance is not at all tempered by humility.
- k4tz 6y ago
  This is a good take. I like to play chess recreationally; I also know I'm terrible at chess. Never in a thousand years would I put it on my resume.
  - prepend 6y ago
    It depends where. Under skills seems silly, but under interests seems reasonable. I have a single line on my resume with interests. I don’t list chess, but list cryptography. Because I’m interested in it. I just have that line to help with chitchat during the interview. If some interviewer interpreted that to mean I was a professional cryptographer and that I sucked at it, that would be dumb of them. I also list an interest in kayaking, even though I suck at it.
    - woko 6y ago
      Yes, interests is for chit-chat. If the interviewer assumes special qualities based on the interests of the interviewee, it is on the interviewer.
    - k4tz 6y ago
      Good point!
    - thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
      It's becoming less socially acceptable to be bad at a hobby. I kind of like football but wouldn't dream of calling myself a football fan in more knowledgable company.

To be fair, lots of people colloquially claim to be good at chess but can’t even stumble though a proper opening. The difference between say a class-a player and a rando is massive and easy to tell.

dnh44 6y ago
Memorising openings is also a crutch for players who aren’t that good so I’m not sure if I would use that as a benchmark for good players.
- nathancahill 6y ago
  I feel personally attacked. But I didn't downvote you because you're not wrong.
- supportlocal4h 6y ago
  Memorizing openings is not a crutch. It's the only path upward past a certain point. It is impossible to play competitively at, say, the 2000 level if you haven't mastered a few openings. If you want to play 800-level chess, you can have fun without knowing any set openings. Well, almost. You'd better be able to recognize and defend scholar's mate at a bare minimum. But that is a bit like being an amateur programmer who never learns what a function is. You can still enjoy programming at that level, but it's odd to describe functions as crutches.
  - jeremyjh 6y ago
    I doubt if you can play competitively at the 1600 level without knowing some opening theory. That'd be like playing against a 3200 for the first six moves and then hoping you are not worse. GP has no idea what he is talking about; it is stronger players who study theory. Weak players may/learn a few tricks/gambits, but you have to learn at least enough of those to avoid them.
- beaconstudios 6y ago
  Memorising openings is also good for avoiding well known traps like the fried liver, fishing pole or Eric Rosen's favourite the Stafford gambit. Most strong players have a variety of book openings memorised.
- permo-w 6y ago
  I wouldn’t agree with that. Memorising openings is something you do so that you don’t have to repeatedly calculate every tactic in a position, and to help you reach a favourable mid game Besides, once you get into the middlegame, you still need the tactical and positional skills that I suspect you consider opening knowledge a crutch for In chess (and life) it’s far easier to pattern match a solution for a position rather than coming up with a brand new solution every time In my opinion, this makes memory and experience far more important than intellect in chess, especially in the faster time formats
- ivalm 6y ago
  There are bad players who know openings, but there an no good players who don’t know openings. Without opening theory you will just get worse middle game against any competent opponent. Furthermore, if you could just calculate everything ab inito your play would be identical to “memorized opening,” alpha zero did learn a lot of standard openings from self-play (without being shown these opening explicitly). If someone plays a “bad” opening in a serious game it’s because not only they don’t know theory but they also can’t calculate well enough.

colechristensen 6y ago

Nobody would think that though, a GM would be able to tell how bad you are lying.

alexf95 6y ago

The GM would easily figure out at what chess level he is though. No one expecting him to beat the GM of course.

DocTomoe 6y ago
The point is that that still is pretty meaningless. You can enjoy a game of chess even if you are not very good at it, much like you can enjoy a game of golf for the aspect of walking around in a well-kept park and having a chat, and see some improvement in your handicap over time. I would not expect someone who puts chess on a resume to play competitively, which is a whole different beast.
- LudwigNagasena 6y ago
  Sure, only like 100 top GMs can play competitively, but there are over 1000 GMs who do it as a hobby while they work at Google, Microsoft or any other company.
- bidirectional 6y ago
  But it's impossible to play chess or golf at even the most leisurely level without improving at least a little, as you say with handicap. I'm sure an expert can tell the difference between an earnest hobbyist and someone who learnt the rules as a child but hasn't played since.

hangonhn 6y ago

But how Dunning Kruger are you to put that down? Like chess has a pretty well known rating system that even a moderately interested player would know about. So in the case of chess you can’t even claim that you didn’t know you are not that great. You can put down you’re decent at Java or C++ or Python and actually be not that great at it because you have nothing to measure against. But in chess there is a rating system. So you ought to know if you are truly remarkable or not. If you think you are remarkable enough to put it down and then suck at it, how ignorant must you be?! And more importantly, that ignorance is not at all tempered by humility.

k4tz 6y ago
This is a good take. I like to play chess recreationally; I also know I'm terrible at chess. Never in a thousand years would I put it on my resume.
- prepend 6y ago
  It depends where. Under skills seems silly, but under interests seems reasonable. I have a single line on my resume with interests. I don’t list chess, but list cryptography. Because I’m interested in it. I just have that line to help with chitchat during the interview. If some interviewer interpreted that to mean I was a professional cryptographer and that I sucked at it, that would be dumb of them. I also list an interest in kayaking, even though I suck at it.
  - woko 6y ago
    Yes, interests is for chit-chat. If the interviewer assumes special qualities based on the interests of the interviewee, it is on the interviewer.
  - k4tz 6y ago
    Good point!
  - thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
    It's becoming less socially acceptable to be bad at a hobby. I kind of like football but wouldn't dream of calling myself a football fan in more knowledgable company.