7 ms·
Long long time ago in a galaxy far far away I used requirement in job postings “10 years of Java experience” (when Java was about 7 years old) as a filter: peop
by lsh123 6y ago
Long long time ago in a galaxy far far away I used requirement in job postings “10 years of Java experience” (when Java was about 7 years old) as a filter: people who wrote me complaining about unrealistic requirement got interviews; people who sent resumes with 15 years of Java went into /dev/null
- mssundaram 6y agoThat's really lousy, I wouldn't have even bothered applying to that because I'd assume you had unrealistic expectations or no idea what you are talking about.
- Animats 6y agoYes. I've seen job ads asking for N years of experience in something < N years old. The assumption is that the ad is from a bottom-feeder headhunter.
- lsh123 6y agoI’ll repeat reply to another comment: you would have made an assumption without knowing facts or trying to ask questions
- lsh123 6y agoI was (and still am) interested in hiring people who would challenge manager, TL, ... and speak up if they think something is not right. That was just one of the filters.
- 8ytecoder 6y agoI wouldn’t waste my time if I thought the hiring manager/recruiter is so incompetent. I’d have read that and bucketed the company as one of those looking to tick the boxes in years of experience.
- MauranKilom 6y agoAs long as not every good candidate thinks this, it could still work quite well. Doubt it's a good tactic in general, but if you have enough applicants otherwise and only need to fill few positions, this might be an effective way to filter them.
- lsh123 6y agoI’ll repeat my reply to another comment: you would have made an assumption without knowing facts or trying to ask questions
- 8ytecoder 6y agoWell, if I don’t know how to prioritize my time and cut down on time-wasters, I can’t be a good employee either.
- NalNezumi 6y agoIf the company you worked at was big/popular enough that you needed a strong filter then I can see the merit of this. But otherwise, I can't fathom how anyone that is willing to "speak up their mind, challenge manager" would ever consider to apply for a position that radiate manager/HR/recruiter incompetence (and no tech team feedback on the posting?) People who challenge manager, TL, speaks up because it's their business(or they see it that way) and affects them. Can't see how those kind of people would waste their time voicing their content to a company they spent <10min checking the job postings for.
- lsh123 6y agoA few people I hired this or similar ways became my friends and we still connect, get coffee, etc. Your mileage may vary. If you want to hire warm bodies to write code then this is not a good way. If you want to hire people who will make strategic difference to your startup/company, then it is one of the possible ways.
- NalNezumi 6y ago>A few people I hired this or similar ways became my friends and we still connect, get coffee, etc. Becoming a friend or not is not a causal relation to competence, but rather to your preference. And in this context makes me doubt that what underwater said in his comment might be the real goal: >They're good for determining if the test taker is the test author, and not much else. More plausible that you only wanted to hire, well, people just like you (and that's why you became friends). Not withstanding the glaring obvious survivor bias. But if it worked, who am I to question it. > If you want to hire warm bodies to write code then this is not a good way. Yea but my point wasn't (or yours either) to hire warm bodies, but people that "speak up their mind, challenge manager". And we are talking how efficient(or inefficient) this is, and how many false negatives this method produce. and if your pool of applicants is big enough, it will produce true positives anyway, irrelevant of the efficiency of the filter. Personally I think even "agreeableness" personality test mumbo-jumbo would be a better metric/filter for gaining people with "speak up their mind, challenge manager" characteristics.
- invalidOrTaken 6y agoYou're depending on being very lucky, People go through three phases: 1. they are too scared to challenge authority 2. they are not scared of challenging authority 3. they realize they can just go somewhere else Mature, intelligent Phase 3 people will only challenge authority if they know they're secure in doing so---if they trust you. But why should they trust you? They've never met you, you're just a job ad.
- imron 6y ago> was (and still am) interested in hiring people who would challenge manager, TL, ... and speak up if they think something is not right. Sounds like mssundaram is just the person you need to hire then.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- lsh123 6y agoYes, I would love to chat and see if there is interest ;)
- throwaway210222 6y agoDo you think civil engineers and surgeons behave like this? Comport yourself like a professional.
- underwater 6y agoMost gotcha tests like this are trying to filter for a general attribute with a overly specific response. Which, coincidentally, turns out to be the exact response that the interviewer would have had. They're good for determining if the test taker is the test author, and not much else.
- frobozz 6y agoThe trouble is, even people who would challenge things don't want to be forced to do so unnecessarily. I'm happy to speak up if something isn't right, but if that happens too often, I'll speak up using my feet. If an ad or interview gives me a vibe that most of my job is going to involve telling people they are wrong, I'll choose a different job.
- lsh123 6y agoI think your experience would strongly depend on whether people listen when you tell them they are wrong. I think you will enjoy it if they actually do listen and fix things you point out as wrong.
- grogenaut 6y agoI would have immediately sorted your posting into a bin with "doesn't know enough about the tech they are hiring for". I saw many resumes at the time that had impossible requirements like that. Unlike you were say James Gosling. And I know you weren't hiring him with a post like this.
- lsh123 6y agoWell, you would have made an assumption without knowing facts or trying to ask questions.
- grogenaut 6y agoThis is exactly what you are doing. You a hiring manager are not special and allowed to opt out of human decency and professional conduct. In fact you need to do more of both. As a candidate I spend about the same amount of time on reviewing job positions as you do on resumes. When I'm looking for candidates I don't interview every resume I see, it's like 50:1 on contacts. As a candidate it's the same. I currently filter out any company who doesn't have pricing on the website for instance. I don't want to work for a purely enterprise sales based company as I hate working with them as a customer. In your case at best I might say your position has impossible requirements to be helpful. But I did that in the early days if java and was given many excuses. None of them led to interviews and I don't think any of them changed their postings. Tldr, you're just convincing me more that I wouldn't want to work with you.
- prepend 6y agoSeems odd to filter for people who have time and inclination to seek out the job poster and complain that they’re stupid. I guess if you want argumentative detectives that’s good. If I insert a joke into a job spec, I don’t want it to seem like I’m an idiot. I assume that any competent people I want to work with will value non-idiots and not want to work with idiots. In this case you weren’t an idiot, but just testing people’s grit or honesty or whatnot. But I would just assume the spec was written by an oblivious HR person who, at best, or perhaps an oblivious hiring manager. So I would have only applied if I really needed the money.
- lsh123 6y agoThere is a difference between being argumentative and being a person to question things. Let me give you an example. I am a pilot and I was flying to Long Beach a few weeks back. It was morning with a low marine layer so there was only one option - ILS 30. The controller was doing a harD job of merging small planes like myself and big iron (Southwest, Delta, etc) going to the same runway. The Cessna in front of me got vectors (and accepted!) to fly 10 miles into the ocean for spacing. When I heard it on the radio my first thought the was “their engine quits and they better know how to swim”. When controller asked me to follow that Cessna, my reply was “unable, don’t have my swimsuit today, but I can do left or right 360 for spacing”. The Cessna pilot accepted controllers directions without asking any questions putting himself and passengers at risk. Very few software engineers face life or death decisions, but I still like people who ask questions ;)
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoI've heard about two companies who hired specifically in Scala because it would filter out mediocre Java developers. I mean they got an unmaintainable, over-engineered and elitist Scala codebase as a result but hey, at least hiring was a bit easier.
- extraduder_ire 6y agoTacking on "or equivalent" to the end of that requirement would make it seem more intentional, and less stupid to the average reader. Only time I hear about better than real-time experience being required, it's people making fun of whoever wrote the requirement.
- zero_deg_kevin 6y agoI see things like that and assume that everyone involved in writing, reviewing, and processing the position it advertises is either incompetent, negligent, or playing a game. Ultimately, I don’t care to know why, because there are other jobs with better teams at better companies.
- lsh123 6y agoI’ll repeat my reply above: you would have made an assumption without knowing facts or trying to ask questions
- zero_deg_kevin 6y agoIf I took the time to ask probing questions every time someone makes a bad first impression, I wouldn’t have time to work, eat, or sleep. My heuristics have served me well, and I’m sticking with them.