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Isn't the 486 ISA (and whole surrounding architecture really) royalty free by now? I wish we'd get cheap chinese 486 clones like the knock-off Arduinos. Imagin

Isn't the 486 ISA (and whole surrounding architecture really) royalty free by now? I wish we'd get cheap chinese 486 clones like the knock-off Arduinos. Imagine paying < $10 for a 486-compatible SBC for all your retro nerd needs. Yes, I know you can emulate it on a $25 Raspberry Pi, but it's not the same.

walrus01 6y ago
tiny things with weak intel atom CPUs (same as you'd find in a cheap 7 inch tablet from 3 years ago) capable of the full i686 instruction set are not much more than $25...
- theodric 6y ago
  Linky? I have a use case but only found much pricier units.
  - walrus01 6y ago
    oddly it now seems to be out of stock, but the price is similar to an equal spec raspberry pi 4 https://www.seeedstudio.com/Rock-Pi-X-Model-B-4GB-p-4277.html https://www.seeedstudio.com/Rock-Pi-X-Model-B-4GB-p-4277.htm...
em3rgent0rdr 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Technologies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Technologies
- walrus01 6y ago
  The VIA Nano/Centaur derived CPUs ultimately became this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaoxin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaoxin https://www.tomshardware.com/features/zhaoxin-kx-u6780a-x86-cpu-tested https://www.tomshardware.com/features/zhaoxin-kx-u6780a-x86-...
pjc50 6y ago
The support chipset required is quite extensive. There is a market for them, but in the "industrial PC" form factor and not cheap because the quantity is so small. (If you want to boot DOS then in addition to the cpu and DRAM you need a whole BIOS and emulated keyboard, interrupt controller, disc controller, and VGA controller)
smcl 6y ago
Interesting aside - the Intel Quark line was seemingly based on the 486[1], albeit with a substantial process change (600 nm to 90 nm) and some modifications to support the Pentium ISA. So the 486 didn't just live on to be sold to industrial users as-is, it evolved and reappeared in some embedded systems running at a not too shabby 400MHz (originally the 486 ran at 25-100MHz). On a similar note, I think earlier Atom chips were largely based on the original Pentium (not Pro, not II or III) but maybe take that with a pinch of salt as I don't 100% remember where I read it :-) [1] - https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/28/intel-talks-little-quark https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/28/intel-talks-little-quark
- temac 6y ago
  If I remember correctly, there is now a Quark part of Intel chipsets to run the ME code.
  - smcl 6y ago
    Ha, so at the heart of many of our PCs is a 486 running Minix. Retrocomputing is bigger than I thought :-)
techrat 6y ago
Intel attempted a GPU that was effectively a cluster of x86 cores with a massive process shrink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(microarchitecture)#Differences_with_CPUs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(microarchitecture)#D... Not quite as old as 486s, but damn close: The cores were all based on the P54C Pentium, in order execution only type processing cores. I remember hearing about an Intel Dedicated GPU that was supposed to be all 486 cores, but my ability to Google it seems to be failing me so I suspect it was probably my conflating an IOE type cluster of cores of the Larrabee with the 486. It appears that the Larrabee came in variants of 10 (at 65nm) 40 (at 45nm), 48 (at 32nm) cores on the dGPU. https://www.anandtech.com/show/2580/6 https://www.anandtech.com/show/2580/6 In the end, Intel expected people to be able to run x86 code on these dGPUs...
- theandrewbailey 6y ago
  Linus (Tech Tips) got his hands on a prototype Larrabee card, but wasn't able to get it running. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um-1fAVU1OQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um-1fAVU1OQ
- temac 6y ago
  It even kind of shipped in the form of Xeon Phi, without graphics though, including in the first version a precursor of AVX-512 (and in next versions subsets of AVX-512 that are not exactly the same as the ones most in use today... it's a mess...)
- fulafel 6y ago
  The chip was not really like a cluster, the memory semantics were fully coherent SSI like we're used to on x86 multicore systems. (Possibly you meant cluster in a chip design sense, not in the distributed computing sense? In Larrabee/KNL context, clusters usualy meant racks of machines HPC style...).
mattowen_uk 6y ago
The currently existing 486+ SBCs all list for approximately 200 GBP on eBay, unless you are lucky enough to grab one that's under valued (which I did a while back!). The downside of these, are that they are designed to be used inside industrial equipment, typically have an ISA edge connecter, and are missing all the ribbon cables to connect them the peripherals (and power cables). So they become a DIY project, which is fun for some people, but not good for those who don't like building hardware. Additionally almost all industrial SBCs have no sound hardware on board (fixable by using an ISA backplane and another card, or via a PC/104 adapter). The alternative is the old VIA Eden mini-ITX boards (mentioned elsewhere in this thread), if you get the right one, they are faster than a 486 but not TOO fast, AND come with SoundBlaster/Ad-Lib emulation on-board. I've got one as tiny DOS gaming PC and it works VERY well.
rwmj 6y ago
There's a 486 open core under a BSD-ish license: https://github.com/alfikpl/ao486 https://github.com/alfikpl/ao486 I have this on an FPGA and it can run DOOM albeit a bit slowly.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
If I was going to play about on an architecture of my choice, I wouldn't choose the 486, I'd go for something more exotic. Perhaps this SPARC-powered kit: https://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/ https://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/ A quick google indicates there are a small number of MIPS-powered Arduino-like kits out there. Looks like there's no equivalent for the SuperH, sadly.

walrus01 6y ago

tiny things with weak intel atom CPUs (same as you'd find in a cheap 7 inch tablet from 3 years ago) capable of the full i686 instruction set are not much more than $25...

theodric 6y ago
Linky? I have a use case but only found much pricier units.
- walrus01 6y ago
  oddly it now seems to be out of stock, but the price is similar to an equal spec raspberry pi 4 https://www.seeedstudio.com/Rock-Pi-X-Model-B-4GB-p-4277.html https://www.seeedstudio.com/Rock-Pi-X-Model-B-4GB-p-4277.htm...

em3rgent0rdr 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Technologies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Technologies

walrus01 6y ago
The VIA Nano/Centaur derived CPUs ultimately became this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaoxin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaoxin https://www.tomshardware.com/features/zhaoxin-kx-u6780a-x86-cpu-tested https://www.tomshardware.com/features/zhaoxin-kx-u6780a-x86-...

pjc50 6y ago

The support chipset required is quite extensive. There is a market for them, but in the "industrial PC" form factor and not cheap because the quantity is so small. (If you want to boot DOS then in addition to the cpu and DRAM you need a whole BIOS and emulated keyboard, interrupt controller, disc controller, and VGA controller)

smcl 6y ago

Interesting aside - the Intel Quark line was seemingly based on the 486[1], albeit with a substantial process change (600 nm to 90 nm) and some modifications to support the Pentium ISA. So the 486 didn't just live on to be sold to industrial users as-is, it evolved and reappeared in some embedded systems running at a not too shabby 400MHz (originally the 486 ran at 25-100MHz). On a similar note, I think earlier Atom chips were largely based on the original Pentium (not Pro, not II or III) but maybe take that with a pinch of salt as I don't 100% remember where I read it :-) [1] - https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/28/intel-talks-little-quark https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/28/intel-talks-little-quark

temac 6y ago
If I remember correctly, there is now a Quark part of Intel chipsets to run the ME code.
- smcl 6y ago
  Ha, so at the heart of many of our PCs is a 486 running Minix. Retrocomputing is bigger than I thought :-)

techrat 6y ago

Intel attempted a GPU that was effectively a cluster of x86 cores with a massive process shrink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(microarchitecture)#Differences_with_CPUs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(microarchitecture)#D... Not quite as old as 486s, but damn close: The cores were all based on the P54C Pentium, in order execution only type processing cores. I remember hearing about an Intel Dedicated GPU that was supposed to be all 486 cores, but my ability to Google it seems to be failing me so I suspect it was probably my conflating an IOE type cluster of cores of the Larrabee with the 486. It appears that the Larrabee came in variants of 10 (at 65nm) 40 (at 45nm), 48 (at 32nm) cores on the dGPU. https://www.anandtech.com/show/2580/6 https://www.anandtech.com/show/2580/6 In the end, Intel expected people to be able to run x86 code on these dGPUs...

theandrewbailey 6y ago
Linus (Tech Tips) got his hands on a prototype Larrabee card, but wasn't able to get it running. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um-1fAVU1OQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um-1fAVU1OQ
temac 6y ago
It even kind of shipped in the form of Xeon Phi, without graphics though, including in the first version a precursor of AVX-512 (and in next versions subsets of AVX-512 that are not exactly the same as the ones most in use today... it's a mess...)
fulafel 6y ago
The chip was not really like a cluster, the memory semantics were fully coherent SSI like we're used to on x86 multicore systems. (Possibly you meant cluster in a chip design sense, not in the distributed computing sense? In Larrabee/KNL context, clusters usualy meant racks of machines HPC style...).

mattowen_uk 6y ago

The currently existing 486+ SBCs all list for approximately 200 GBP on eBay, unless you are lucky enough to grab one that's under valued (which I did a while back!). The downside of these, are that they are designed to be used inside industrial equipment, typically have an ISA edge connecter, and are missing all the ribbon cables to connect them the peripherals (and power cables). So they become a DIY project, which is fun for some people, but not good for those who don't like building hardware. Additionally almost all industrial SBCs have no sound hardware on board (fixable by using an ISA backplane and another card, or via a PC/104 adapter). The alternative is the old VIA Eden mini-ITX boards (mentioned elsewhere in this thread), if you get the right one, they are faster than a 486 but not TOO fast, AND come with SoundBlaster/Ad-Lib emulation on-board. I've got one as tiny DOS gaming PC and it works VERY well.

rwmj 6y ago

There's a 486 open core under a BSD-ish license: https://github.com/alfikpl/ao486 https://github.com/alfikpl/ao486 I have this on an FPGA and it can run DOOM albeit a bit slowly.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago

If I was going to play about on an architecture of my choice, I wouldn't choose the 486, I'd go for something more exotic. Perhaps this SPARC-powered kit: https://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/ https://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/ A quick google indicates there are a small number of MIPS-powered Arduino-like kits out there. Looks like there's no equivalent for the SuperH, sadly.