3 ms·

> That's like saying that someone who owns 90% of a publicly traded company is worth $9 billion just because the stock has a market cap of $10 billion. If they'

> That's like saying that someone who owns 90% of a publicly traded company is worth $9 billion just because the stock has a market cap of $10 billion. If they'd actually try to cash that stock, they'd run out of buyers and the stock price would go way, way down. So the objection is that the larger the share of renewable electricity, the higher the electricity price? I'm sure you can see why this is not really a problem? Because the higher the electricity price the more profitable it becomes to invest in renewable electricity. In fact, what currently is stalling the build-out of renewables in many European markets is that electricity prices have plummeted. > A few countries like the USA and Argentina have it easy, but most places don't have large swathes of land laying around completely unused with wind and sun aplenty. Most countries don't have large uranium deposits either. Importation and exportation solves such problems. > What's more: due to only replacing a tiny percentage of electricity production with solar and wind, we aren't yet seeing the need for large scale energy storage, which seems like it will easily triple the cost with current technology (my takeaway from [2], p. 76). 44.6% of Germany's power production comes from renewables and it is not seeing any need for large-scale energy storage [1]. The need for large-scale energy storage may not materialize since fluctuations in power production will be matched by fluctuations in power consumption. In other words, there is no God-given right to mine Bitcoins 24/7 at a constant and minimal electricity price. > You might counter with putting the stuff on sea instead to avoid the finite land issue. The primary problem there is that this is not where people live, increasing the cost of construction, maintenance, and energy transportation. Most people don't live near nuclear power plants either. > For example, wind on sea is about as expensive as nuclear (I should start keeping notes on which sources I looked at before and copy-paste texts instead of memorize and reiterate). According to LAZARD 14.0, offshore wind costs on average $86/MWh to produce compared to $129-$198/MWh for nuclear [2]. And for offshore wind, costs keep falling while they are stagnant or increasing for nuclear. > I'll have fission reactors please. Then I hope you and like-minded are willing to finance the costs of new nuclear power yourselves, because I don't want my taxpayer money to be wasted on any more nuclear boondoggles. [1] https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451419/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-140.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451419/lazards-levelized-cost-o...

Rule35 6y ago
> Because the higher the electricity price the more profitable it becomes to invest in renewable electricity. OP is talking about generation costs. Up is bad.
lucb1e 6y ago
> > [...] most places don't have large swathes of land laying around completely unused with wind and sun aplenty. > Most countries don't have large uranium deposits either. Importation and exportation solves such problems. To an extent, yes, but uranium doesn't leak out of your rail car the way that electricity is lost when you try to transport it. The choice is between power lines or converting it (with losses) in order to have a physical thing, like hydrogen, that can be transported. > it is not seeing any need for large-scale energy storage [1]. Statement not found in citation. Also, they're at 8%, you found a source for electricity (not power). From my other comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26405701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26405701 "Germany uses ~3.7PWh of energy only 0.6PWh of which is electricity [...] No large-scale storage needed if 92% of your energy can be generated from fossil fuels on demand." > Most people don't live near nuclear power plants either. https://www.powerplantmaps.com/nuclear.html https://www.powerplantmaps.com/nuclear.html Without checking each individual one, notice how they typically are within regular electricity transportation distance of the next major city (<100km, often <50km). This matches what I'm seeing when looking at the distances of wind built into the sea (mostly <50km off shore, virtually always within 100km). > nuclear boondoggles I'm not sure why I bothered replying actually, you've already dug in your heels. When I read this last bit, I figured I might as well stop here and regret spending those 20 minutes checking stuff (and so indeed I didn't bother checking your costs for offshore wind and the argument about me paying for it - in fact I pay for a lot of shit that other people don't, like Climeworks, because yeah I do actually care and we'll need all the tech we can get).
- bjourne 6y ago
  > To an extent, yes, but uranium doesn't leak out of your rail car the way that electricity is lost when you try to transport it. The choice is between power lines or converting it (with losses) in order to have a physical thing, like hydrogen, that can be transported. Long-distance transportation of electricity is feasible; transmission losses are about 3% per 1,000 km for high-voltage lines https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/E12_el-t&d_KV_Apr2014_GSOK.pdf https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/E12_el-t&d_KV_Apr2014_GSO.... Morocco and other North African countries are building massive solar farms to export electricity to Europe. > Statement not found in citation. Also, they're at 8%, you found a source for electricity (not power). From my other comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26405701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26405701 "Germany uses ~3.7PWh of energy only 0.6PWh of which is electricity [...] No large-scale storage needed if 92% of your energy can be generated from fossil fuels on demand." Well, you wrote "due to only replacing a tiny percentage of electricity production with solar and wind, we aren't yet seeing the need for large scale energy storage" so the percentage of the electricity generated by renewables must be relevant. Is your claim that the need for large-scale storage will only arise when renewables stand for a large fraction of a country's total energy production? Currently, most countries have existing large-scale storage and distribution systems for fossil fuel. I imagine that they would need to be replaced with similar systems for electricity if most vehicles switches to electricity. > > nuclear boondoggles > I'm not sure why I bothered replying actually, you've already dug in your heels. All recent nuclear projects in the West have been plagued by massive delays and cost overruns: Flamanville, Hinkley Point, Vogtle, and Olkiluoto. Those who have had to foot the bill for these failures are the taxpayers. At this point, it isn't unfair to ask those who think nuclear power is indispensable to risk their own money, rather than others.

Rule35 6y ago

> Because the higher the electricity price the more profitable it becomes to invest in renewable electricity. OP is talking about generation costs. Up is bad.

lucb1e 6y ago

> > [...] most places don't have large swathes of land laying around completely unused with wind and sun aplenty. > Most countries don't have large uranium deposits either. Importation and exportation solves such problems. To an extent, yes, but uranium doesn't leak out of your rail car the way that electricity is lost when you try to transport it. The choice is between power lines or converting it (with losses) in order to have a physical thing, like hydrogen, that can be transported. > it is not seeing any need for large-scale energy storage [1]. Statement not found in citation. Also, they're at 8%, you found a source for electricity (not power). From my other comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26405701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26405701 "Germany uses ~3.7PWh of energy only 0.6PWh of which is electricity [...] No large-scale storage needed if 92% of your energy can be generated from fossil fuels on demand." > Most people don't live near nuclear power plants either. https://www.powerplantmaps.com/nuclear.html https://www.powerplantmaps.com/nuclear.html Without checking each individual one, notice how they typically are within regular electricity transportation distance of the next major city (<100km, often <50km). This matches what I'm seeing when looking at the distances of wind built into the sea (mostly <50km off shore, virtually always within 100km). > nuclear boondoggles I'm not sure why I bothered replying actually, you've already dug in your heels. When I read this last bit, I figured I might as well stop here and regret spending those 20 minutes checking stuff (and so indeed I didn't bother checking your costs for offshore wind and the argument about me paying for it - in fact I pay for a lot of shit that other people don't, like Climeworks, because yeah I do actually care and we'll need all the tech we can get).

bjourne 6y ago
> To an extent, yes, but uranium doesn't leak out of your rail car the way that electricity is lost when you try to transport it. The choice is between power lines or converting it (with losses) in order to have a physical thing, like hydrogen, that can be transported. Long-distance transportation of electricity is feasible; transmission losses are about 3% per 1,000 km for high-voltage lines https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/E12_el-t&d_KV_Apr2014_GSOK.pdf https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/E12_el-t&d_KV_Apr2014_GSO.... Morocco and other North African countries are building massive solar farms to export electricity to Europe. > Statement not found in citation. Also, they're at 8%, you found a source for electricity (not power). From my other comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26405701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26405701 "Germany uses ~3.7PWh of energy only 0.6PWh of which is electricity [...] No large-scale storage needed if 92% of your energy can be generated from fossil fuels on demand." Well, you wrote "due to only replacing a tiny percentage of electricity production with solar and wind, we aren't yet seeing the need for large scale energy storage" so the percentage of the electricity generated by renewables must be relevant. Is your claim that the need for large-scale storage will only arise when renewables stand for a large fraction of a country's total energy production? Currently, most countries have existing large-scale storage and distribution systems for fossil fuel. I imagine that they would need to be replaced with similar systems for electricity if most vehicles switches to electricity. > > nuclear boondoggles > I'm not sure why I bothered replying actually, you've already dug in your heels. All recent nuclear projects in the West have been plagued by massive delays and cost overruns: Flamanville, Hinkley Point, Vogtle, and Olkiluoto. Those who have had to foot the bill for these failures are the taxpayers. At this point, it isn't unfair to ask those who think nuclear power is indispensable to risk their own money, rather than others.