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> You're assuming "batteries" which is just wrong. [...] you want kinetic storage, or possibly power to gas. ...neither of which are cheaper than batteries or

by lucb1e 6y ago

> You're assuming "batteries" which is just wrong. [...] you want kinetic storage, or possibly power to gas. ...neither of which are cheaper than batteries or we'd be doing that Yes, we are doing pumped hydro, but only in a few convenient locations. I recently watched a video about Ireland's new pumped storage facility[1], it mentions some pretty tight constraints for what we currently consider economical (e.g. hill slope). Bill Gates' new book[2] doesn't go into as much detail but also doesn't sound like we got this figured out any better than batteries, basically saying we need breakthroughs or this is going to simply be a prohibitively expensive undertaking for non-rich countries. Specifically about hydrogen (the "to gas" option that has the most buzz at least) [2] says that there are high losses in conversion (without saying how much) as well as hydrogen leaking from metal tanks and electrolyzers being very expensive. There's hope for breakthroughs but.. they do have to happen in order for it to be better (cheaper) than today's batteries. At a bare minimum, it's not obvious that what GP wrote is "just wrong". This isn't something we have a definite answer to. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSgd-QhLHRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSgd-QhLHRI [2] "How to Avoid a Climate Disaster: The Solutions We Have and the Breakthroughs We Need" ISBN 978-0-593-21577-7

lukeschlather 6y ago
> At a bare minimum, it's not obvious that what GP wrote is "just wrong". This isn't something we have a definite answer to. I agree that we don't have definite answers, but that's why what the GP wrote is just wrong. They're reducing a very complicated set of technologies to the economics of lithium ion batteries. While yes, pumped hydro is something of a cop-out, it's clear there are a variety of techs that are cheaper than lithium ion. The economics of this are also a little unclear to me. In the presence of sustained negative electricity prices, it seems obvious in principle that lots of storage technologies would suddenly become economical. But it's hard to imagine how that would work given the way we currently finance these things. (And by extension, it's not clear to me that this is actually a technical problem so much as a political one.)

by lucb1e 6y ago

lukeschlather 6y ago

> At a bare minimum, it's not obvious that what GP wrote is "just wrong". This isn't something we have a definite answer to. I agree that we don't have definite answers, but that's why what the GP wrote is just wrong. They're reducing a very complicated set of technologies to the economics of lithium ion batteries. While yes, pumped hydro is something of a cop-out, it's clear there are a variety of techs that are cheaper than lithium ion. The economics of this are also a little unclear to me. In the presence of sustained negative electricity prices, it seems obvious in principle that lots of storage technologies would suddenly become economical. But it's hard to imagine how that would work given the way we currently finance these things. (And by extension, it's not clear to me that this is actually a technical problem so much as a political one.)