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Women avoid saying such self-deprecating things because they already have a tougher time than men being listened to, taken seriously, promoted, etc. Not that th

Women avoid saying such self-deprecating things because they already have a tougher time than men being listened to, taken seriously, promoted, etc. Not that there aren't exceptions, but most women are acutely aware of how they act and are perceived at work because they start off at a disadvantage. I imagine few men ever think "will my gender get in the way of my ideas, or my work relationships or my career trajectory?".

whimsicalism 6y ago
Don't know why the pretty obvious explanation for why this sort of thing is common is downvoted. Even if you're some weirdo who thinks there is no gender discrimination in the workplace, you can't deny that many women at least perceive there to be gender discrimination, and one of the tips passed around is to stop self-deprecating yourself in front of your colleagues.
- ganzuul 6y ago
  I don't know for a fact either, but would guess the reason is a childhood of girls telling each other nasty things would make them weary of harsh language even when directed at the self. With that part unmentioned, the GP seems to assign dubious priorities to human motivations.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > With that part unmentioned, the GP seems to assign dubious priorities to human motivations. Really? The only motivating factor assumed in the GP looks to be that women want to be successful in their careers. Is that a dubious claim?
    - ganzuul 6y ago
      No... Priority. Not claim. I'm saying that I think the downvotes comes from something GP didn't say rather than something they did say.
- skinkestek 6y ago
  > Even if you're some weirdo who thinks there is no gender discrimination in the workplace, you can't deny that many women at least perceive there to be gender discrimination, Sample size of one, but if my company has the option to hire a male or a female engineer which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience I expect them to choose the female one 10/10 times: - hiring the man gets the job done - hiring the woman gets the job done equally well and gets you a pat on the back (both immediately and also whenever the statistics are brought up)
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    This isn't substantively responsive to my comment, about the perception of gender discrimination.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      Seems you are right. I probably replied to the wrong comment. Or didn't really read your comment. Sorry.
  - deanCommie 6y ago
    You are very close to getting it, but you're missing one crucial detail. > which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience Sure if there was an objective way to evaluate this, then you're right. But there isn't. We THINK that there is, but there is a ton of subjective bias along the way from who recruiters contact, the resume screen, all the way through the interview. And the whole point of gender discrimination is that "on average" women's technical skills and experience are undervalued. That's the premise people are making when they discuss discriminations. Now, you might disagree, and then we can get into the details of why this happens, which parts are conscious and which parts are unconscious. But what's happening is not how you're describing it.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      > And the whole point of gender discrimination is that "on average" women's technical skills and experience are undervalued. As have been pointed out before: most of us live in somewhat capitalist societies. Capitalists are AFAIK primarily greedy not primarily evil. I don't believe for a second that Facebook wouldn't take the opportunity straight away if they could get the same work done for less money by hiring women instead. IBM too. That should cause a feedback loop that increases salaries for female engineers until balance is reached. Anything other would imply a lack of information somewhere or that capitalists were more evil than greedy. Now that I think of it: Lack of information one or more places is actually an interesting hypothesis in its own right.
koonsolo 6y ago
I don't fully agree with you, at least not in the European tech world. According to my experience, women in technical jobs have a higher chance of getting hired, winning a presentation award, and being promoted to team or project manager. On the other hand, I also think that they have a harder time taken serious on highly techical topics, and earn less on average for the same job. It comes with benefits and drawbacks. I honestly don't know which outweighs which, but putting it all in a negative perspective is unfair and not accurate.

whimsicalism 6y ago

Don't know why the pretty obvious explanation for why this sort of thing is common is downvoted. Even if you're some weirdo who thinks there is no gender discrimination in the workplace, you can't deny that many women at least perceive there to be gender discrimination, and one of the tips passed around is to stop self-deprecating yourself in front of your colleagues.

ganzuul 6y ago
I don't know for a fact either, but would guess the reason is a childhood of girls telling each other nasty things would make them weary of harsh language even when directed at the self. With that part unmentioned, the GP seems to assign dubious priorities to human motivations.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > With that part unmentioned, the GP seems to assign dubious priorities to human motivations. Really? The only motivating factor assumed in the GP looks to be that women want to be successful in their careers. Is that a dubious claim?
  - ganzuul 6y ago
    No... Priority. Not claim. I'm saying that I think the downvotes comes from something GP didn't say rather than something they did say.
skinkestek 6y ago
> Even if you're some weirdo who thinks there is no gender discrimination in the workplace, you can't deny that many women at least perceive there to be gender discrimination, Sample size of one, but if my company has the option to hire a male or a female engineer which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience I expect them to choose the female one 10/10 times: - hiring the man gets the job done - hiring the woman gets the job done equally well and gets you a pat on the back (both immediately and also whenever the statistics are brought up)
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  This isn't substantively responsive to my comment, about the perception of gender discrimination.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    Seems you are right. I probably replied to the wrong comment. Or didn't really read your comment. Sorry.
- deanCommie 6y ago
  You are very close to getting it, but you're missing one crucial detail. > which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience Sure if there was an objective way to evaluate this, then you're right. But there isn't. We THINK that there is, but there is a ton of subjective bias along the way from who recruiters contact, the resume screen, all the way through the interview. And the whole point of gender discrimination is that "on average" women's technical skills and experience are undervalued. That's the premise people are making when they discuss discriminations. Now, you might disagree, and then we can get into the details of why this happens, which parts are conscious and which parts are unconscious. But what's happening is not how you're describing it.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    > And the whole point of gender discrimination is that "on average" women's technical skills and experience are undervalued. As have been pointed out before: most of us live in somewhat capitalist societies. Capitalists are AFAIK primarily greedy not primarily evil. I don't believe for a second that Facebook wouldn't take the opportunity straight away if they could get the same work done for less money by hiring women instead. IBM too. That should cause a feedback loop that increases salaries for female engineers until balance is reached. Anything other would imply a lack of information somewhere or that capitalists were more evil than greedy. Now that I think of it: Lack of information one or more places is actually an interesting hypothesis in its own right.

koonsolo 6y ago

I don't fully agree with you, at least not in the European tech world. According to my experience, women in technical jobs have a higher chance of getting hired, winning a presentation award, and being promoted to team or project manager. On the other hand, I also think that they have a harder time taken serious on highly techical topics, and earn less on average for the same job. It comes with benefits and drawbacks. I honestly don't know which outweighs which, but putting it all in a negative perspective is unfair and not accurate.