4 ms·

Unions are a tool from when jobs could kill you, or were in exploitative company towns. They're a very big hammer to use for things you can do on your own, and

by Rule35 6y ago

Unions are a tool from when jobs could kill you, or were in exploitative company towns. They're a very big hammer to use for things you can do on your own, and when there are many other jobs to take. But they come with a lot of drawbacks that are more obvious the less useful their main mission is. Pretty much every union becomes a job protection scheme where bad workers are protected from being fired, and they feel the need to speak politically for the workers in broader issues than simple worker safety, etc. In today's climate it seems like they'd feel the need to act like school administrators, policing nonsense and being a bigger threat to your job than the management. The union would probably be refusing to box Dr Seuss books, etc. Considering that Amazon workers are paid fairly well, and treated well (pee stories notwithstanding), it's not an open and shut decision as it would be for other jobs.

efficax 6y ago
Why don't you ask the union organizers in the Alabama union drive what they are hoping for. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/23/amazon-bessemer-alabama-union https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/23/amazon-be... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/09/us/politics/amazon-union-alabama-biden.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/09/us/politics/amazon-union-... * Improved safety and a system for reporting safety issues without fear of retaliation * Improved working conditions in general: many amazon warehouses are not airconditioned and get so hot in the summers they park an ambulance outside for when someone collapses from heat stroke. * Job security. currently you can be fired without cause, or with causes like falling behind on the absurd production quotas. With a union you have due process to protect your job. * More breaks (imagine only getting ONE break, 4 hours into the work day). I'm a healthy, able bodied person, but what if I need to pee more than once in 4 hours? * Contractual pay and benefits. Sure they pay $15/hr now and offer benefits. What's stopping them from cutting that wage or cutting those benefits if costs from another sector cut into profits? Nothing
- Rule35 6y ago
  > Why don't you ask the union organizers in the Alabama union drive what they are hoping for. I've read many lists, like the one you posted (thanks), and mostly I do not find them believable and where I do, I don't find them compelling. > but what if I need to pee more than once in 4 hours? OSHA specifically forbids limiting bathroom breaks for any employee. Sure, they'd like you to pee on your break, but they can't enforce it - they cannot fire you for this, despite that it is at-will employment. Ditto all the health/safety claims made. All this is covered by existing law and the courts are very worker friendly. > Job security - currently you can be fired without cause Which are the conditions under which I hire a babysitter. > or with causes like falling behind on the absurd production quotas. Quotas are the exact opposite of unstated rules, and are generally good. If you can't pack n widgets in an hour, don't take the job. Also, if someone can perform at quota it's not absurd. > What's stopping them from cutting that wage or cutting those benefits if costs from another sector cut into profits? Nothing If your job stopped being productive or profitable they'd stop paying you to do it. And you think they should be prevented from doing this?
gamblor956 6y ago
Pretty much everything you said was false, and I'm not surprised a throwaway account was created to spread those falsehoods. Amazon warehouse workers are not paid well or even fairly well. They are not treated well. Amazon does its absolute best to treat its workers exactly as well as the minimum required by law, and even then it regularly attempts to cut back on even that. It took more than a decade for Amazon to install A/C units in its SoCal warehouses, even though those facilities are located in an area with 100+ degree summer temperatures. Also, school administrators aren't generally part of a union. The teachers are, and they weren't the ones behind Dr. Seuss. (And on that note, the teachers are not responsible for Dr. Seuss being a huge racist who incorporated disgustingly racist imagery in children's books.)
- Rule35 6y ago
  > the teachers are not responsible for Dr. Seuss being a huge racist who incorporated disgustingly racist imagery in children's books Lol, like the "Eskimo fish". Maybe stop getting your news from Tumblr. You're clearly arguing from outrage and memes. > Amazon warehouse workers are not paid well or even fairly well. They are not treated well. So not even fairly well that they're always fully staffed. > Amazon does its absolute best to treat its workers exactly as well as the minimum required by law No, they pay better, have better (ie, existant) perks and benefits, etc. There's pretty much no metric on which there is a legal minimum, that Amazon only just hits. It's actually wildly competitive. But even if they were "just doing the minimum", do you overpay on taxes? For your car? Do you 'tip' Amazon when you order an item? How many pieces of flair is enough and can we please just make that the new minimum? If you were really serious you wouldn't peddle this fake Amazon warehouses are bad narrative, you'd work for everyone else who isn't at a job that good. Instead of destroying something good, work to bring it to others.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    You're clearly arguing from outrage and memes Have you actually read any of Dr. Seuss' works? Literally every non-white human character is depicted in a subservient role. Asians are depicted with buckteeth and slanted closed eyes. In several works, Asians are literally depicted as half-human, half monster. In every instance, Black people are depicted as sambo dolls with monkey faces. The Cat in the Hat is based on a blackface minstrel show. No, they pay better, have better (ie, existant) perks and benefits, etc. There's pretty much no metric on which there is a legal minimum, that Amazon only just hits. It's actually wildly competitive. Amazon pays the minimum wage of the location the warehouse is located in, except in Alabama where they just raised the wages to fight off the unionization efforts. Many Amazon warehouse employees don't qualify for benefits because most of them are deliberately scheduled below the 30-hour minimum to qualify for benefits, which is illegal in some states (like CA) but not in states like Alabama. Amazon has been disciplined by CA's labor department many times for violating the state labor code with respect to its mistreatment of its warehouse workers. Do you 'tip' Amazon when you order an item? Why would I tip Amazon? Amazon is a multi-billion dollar company that earns billions of dollars in profit every quarter. I do tip the delivery driver that delivers food from a restaurant when I order delivery. If you were really serious you wouldn't peddle this fake Amazon warehouses are bad narrative, you'd work for everyone else who isn't at a job that good. Instead of destroying something good, work to bring it to others. Amazon warehouses are bad. By choice. They could be good jobs if Amazon didn't deliberately mistreat its warehouse employees. They have the profits from Amazon.com (i.e., the store) to pay for relatively simple things, like an additional restroom so employees don't have to piss themselves on the line, or for A/C or heater units so employees don't freeze in the winter or pass out from the heat in the summer. But Amazon chooses not to do that. If Amazon would be destroyed by spending .000001% of their profits on not mistreating their employees, then they deserve to be destroyed. Because their competitors are more than capable of surviving despite not treating their employees like shit.

by Rule35 6y ago

efficax 6y ago

Why don't you ask the union organizers in the Alabama union drive what they are hoping for. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/23/amazon-bessemer-alabama-union https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/23/amazon-be... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/09/us/politics/amazon-union-alabama-biden.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/09/us/politics/amazon-union-... * Improved safety and a system for reporting safety issues without fear of retaliation * Improved working conditions in general: many amazon warehouses are not airconditioned and get so hot in the summers they park an ambulance outside for when someone collapses from heat stroke. * Job security. currently you can be fired without cause, or with causes like falling behind on the absurd production quotas. With a union you have due process to protect your job. * More breaks (imagine only getting ONE break, 4 hours into the work day). I'm a healthy, able bodied person, but what if I need to pee more than once in 4 hours? * Contractual pay and benefits. Sure they pay $15/hr now and offer benefits. What's stopping them from cutting that wage or cutting those benefits if costs from another sector cut into profits? Nothing

Rule35 6y ago
> Why don't you ask the union organizers in the Alabama union drive what they are hoping for. I've read many lists, like the one you posted (thanks), and mostly I do not find them believable and where I do, I don't find them compelling. > but what if I need to pee more than once in 4 hours? OSHA specifically forbids limiting bathroom breaks for any employee. Sure, they'd like you to pee on your break, but they can't enforce it - they cannot fire you for this, despite that it is at-will employment. Ditto all the health/safety claims made. All this is covered by existing law and the courts are very worker friendly. > Job security - currently you can be fired without cause Which are the conditions under which I hire a babysitter. > or with causes like falling behind on the absurd production quotas. Quotas are the exact opposite of unstated rules, and are generally good. If you can't pack n widgets in an hour, don't take the job. Also, if someone can perform at quota it's not absurd. > What's stopping them from cutting that wage or cutting those benefits if costs from another sector cut into profits? Nothing If your job stopped being productive or profitable they'd stop paying you to do it. And you think they should be prevented from doing this?

gamblor956 6y ago

Pretty much everything you said was false, and I'm not surprised a throwaway account was created to spread those falsehoods. Amazon warehouse workers are not paid well or even fairly well. They are not treated well. Amazon does its absolute best to treat its workers exactly as well as the minimum required by law, and even then it regularly attempts to cut back on even that. It took more than a decade for Amazon to install A/C units in its SoCal warehouses, even though those facilities are located in an area with 100+ degree summer temperatures. Also, school administrators aren't generally part of a union. The teachers are, and they weren't the ones behind Dr. Seuss. (And on that note, the teachers are not responsible for Dr. Seuss being a huge racist who incorporated disgustingly racist imagery in children's books.)

Rule35 6y ago
> the teachers are not responsible for Dr. Seuss being a huge racist who incorporated disgustingly racist imagery in children's books Lol, like the "Eskimo fish". Maybe stop getting your news from Tumblr. You're clearly arguing from outrage and memes. > Amazon warehouse workers are not paid well or even fairly well. They are not treated well. So not even fairly well that they're always fully staffed. > Amazon does its absolute best to treat its workers exactly as well as the minimum required by law No, they pay better, have better (ie, existant) perks and benefits, etc. There's pretty much no metric on which there is a legal minimum, that Amazon only just hits. It's actually wildly competitive. But even if they were "just doing the minimum", do you overpay on taxes? For your car? Do you 'tip' Amazon when you order an item? How many pieces of flair is enough and can we please just make that the new minimum? If you were really serious you wouldn't peddle this fake Amazon warehouses are bad narrative, you'd work for everyone else who isn't at a job that good. Instead of destroying something good, work to bring it to others.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  You're clearly arguing from outrage and memes Have you actually read any of Dr. Seuss' works? Literally every non-white human character is depicted in a subservient role. Asians are depicted with buckteeth and slanted closed eyes. In several works, Asians are literally depicted as half-human, half monster. In every instance, Black people are depicted as sambo dolls with monkey faces. The Cat in the Hat is based on a blackface minstrel show. No, they pay better, have better (ie, existant) perks and benefits, etc. There's pretty much no metric on which there is a legal minimum, that Amazon only just hits. It's actually wildly competitive. Amazon pays the minimum wage of the location the warehouse is located in, except in Alabama where they just raised the wages to fight off the unionization efforts. Many Amazon warehouse employees don't qualify for benefits because most of them are deliberately scheduled below the 30-hour minimum to qualify for benefits, which is illegal in some states (like CA) but not in states like Alabama. Amazon has been disciplined by CA's labor department many times for violating the state labor code with respect to its mistreatment of its warehouse workers. Do you 'tip' Amazon when you order an item? Why would I tip Amazon? Amazon is a multi-billion dollar company that earns billions of dollars in profit every quarter. I do tip the delivery driver that delivers food from a restaurant when I order delivery. If you were really serious you wouldn't peddle this fake Amazon warehouses are bad narrative, you'd work for everyone else who isn't at a job that good. Instead of destroying something good, work to bring it to others. Amazon warehouses are bad. By choice. They could be good jobs if Amazon didn't deliberately mistreat its warehouse employees. They have the profits from Amazon.com (i.e., the store) to pay for relatively simple things, like an additional restroom so employees don't have to piss themselves on the line, or for A/C or heater units so employees don't freeze in the winter or pass out from the heat in the summer. But Amazon chooses not to do that. If Amazon would be destroyed by spending .000001% of their profits on not mistreating their employees, then they deserve to be destroyed. Because their competitors are more than capable of surviving despite not treating their employees like shit.