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“The nation of Israel was attacked by 7 Arab countries literally the day it was founded”. So a bunch of foreign powers come in and take land off you and create

“The nation of Israel was attacked by 7 Arab countries literally the day it was founded”. So a bunch of foreign powers come in and take land off you and create a new nation state overnight and you’re supposed to just be chill!? Yeah - no shit they were attacked. I’m not anti-Israel btw. Not in the slightest. I just find it funny that ppl act so shocked that - what was effectively an invasion - was not well received by the locals living in the region in the mid 20th century. “But it’s their homeland...” Yeah I’d love to see how Americans would react if China/Russia came in overnight and carved out a new action state to give to Native Americans cause it was their homeland hundreds of years ago...

josh_fyi 6y ago
Foreign powers did not create Israel. Jews did. > carved out a new action state to give to Native Americans I rather like the idea that Native Americans could have their own country if they choose, as Jews do now, something better than reservations. China and Russia have nothing to do with it.
- 0x49fa98 6y ago
  that must be why the Mizrahi are treated so well in their own country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#Disparities_and_integration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#Disparities_and_i...
  - NeverFade 6y ago
    Love it when a bunch of new users join the discussion to spread anti-Israeli propaganda. Israel isn't perfect, and has its own internal tensions, much like the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and basically every other nation. Trying to use these tensions as a wholesale argument against Israel is like claiming Sweden is an illegitimate country since it's going through social tensions and unrest due to immigration right now.
    - captain_price7 6y ago
      > Love it when a bunch of new users join the discussion to spread anti-Israeli propaganda. You've made like 10 comments in this thread. I'm not accusing you of anything. But before you accuse others of "propaganda", maybe take a look at yourself and see who's behaving somewhat suspiciously in this thread.
      - zthrowaway 6y ago
        Participating in a discussion on a topic you have knowledge around is suspicious now?
      - NeverFade 6y ago
        I've made probably 30 comments in the last thread in which I participated, which had exactly zero to do with Israel. Unlike these new users, I have a history of comments on the site, and I have not joined today just to engage in this very specific thread. Yet you try to paint me as the suspicious one...
    - bjourne 6y ago
      > Israel isn't perfect, and has its own internal tensions, much like the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and basically every other nation. The level of racism in Israel is unique among Western nations: * 53% of Israelis say Arabs should be encouraged to leave. Only 51% think they deserve equal rights. 46% say that they would not want to live near Arabs [1]. * 52% of Israeli Jews thinks African migrants are "a cancer" [2]. * 96% of Israeli Jews would be uncomfortable with their child marrying a Muslim, 89% say this about a Christian [3] * 72% of all Israeli Jews thinks it is more important to keep Israel a Jewish majority than to keep Israel democratic [4]. [1] https://www.jpost.com/national-news/53-percent-of-israelis-say-arabs-should-be-encouraged-to-leave-197436 https://www.jpost.com/national-news/53-percent-of-israelis-s... [2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israeli-jews-agree-africans-are-a-cancer/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israeli-jews-agree-africa... [3] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/04/religious-groups-in-israel-keep-to-themselves-when-it-comes-to-marriages-and-friendships-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/04/religious-g... [4] https://www.dohainstitute.org/en/lists/ACRPS-PDFDocumentLibrary/An_Analysis_of_Israeli_public.pdf https://www.dohainstitute.org/en/lists/ACRPS-PDFDocumentLibr... > Trying to use these tensions as a wholesale argument against Israel is like claiming Sweden is an illegitimate country since it's going through social tensions and unrest due to immigration right now. The tell-tale sign of a right-wing bigot is that they use the uninformed "what about Sweden!"-argument. The idea that immigration of brown-skinned people is a threat to their country because, apparently, and unknown to most Swedes, immigration has caused Sweden to collapse.
- arken 6y ago
  Forgive me, but that’s a pretty one sided view to take. The local Jewish population was certainly instrumental as were Zionist groups in the UK and elsewhere. But you’re fooling yourself if you think great power diplomacy and the region’s colonial history weren’t also important factors. I’d encourage you to look into the history of the British mandate, the Balfour Declaration, and the lead up to the 1947 Partition Plan/1948 War. It’s a fascinating story if nothing else.
  - NeverFade 6y ago
    The British mandate authorities outlawed all Jewish defense forces and tried to confiscate all arms from the Jewish population before they left the region. They also actively prevented Jews from immigrating to Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939 https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-restrictions-on-jewish-immigration-to-palestine https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-restrictions-on... To claim that the British were "a foreign power" that helped the budding nation of Israel is, simply put, the opposite of historical fact.
    - arken 6y ago
      That doesn’t mean the British state played no role. Are you saying the Balfour Declaration had no impact on developments in the region from 1917-1947? I’m not saying the formation of Israel was 100% the result of intentional British foreign policy. Foreign policy is messy and inconsistent. The various actors in the region were seeking different things at different times. Yes the British were in some cases trying to disarm Jewish militants, but in many cases they were also the ones who had handed out the arms in the first place (eg. The Jewish Brigade). I don’t see how you can dispute that this a messy, contested historical saga with many factors to consider. I urge you to read more widely on this topic. If you’re so certain that your position is the correct one, you stand only to confirm your existing beliefs.
      - NeverFade 6y ago
flyinglizard 6y ago
Jews were not invaders. Jews were their neighbors. See the 1929 Hebron massacre as an example.
NeverFade 6y ago
> So a bunch of foreign powers What "bunch of foreign powers", exactly? Have a look at that Wikipedia article. No other "power" was fighting for Israel, as it was attacked by Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. This narrative of "invasion" and "stealing land" is entirely false and irrelevant to 1948. Iraq doesn't share a border with Israel, neither do Saudi Arabia or Yemen. Israel also didn't claim any territory from any of the others. It was just tribal warfare, pure and simple. The Arabs didn't like the Jews, so they attacked them. Folks like to assume that Israel was "helped" by various "foreign powers", notably the US. The reality? Not only did the US not help, but Israel was under a US arms embargo since its inception in 1948. The alliance between the US and Israel only started when Israel decisively won the 1967 war, because at that point the US figured it was in its best interest to ally with Israel.
- bit_flip 6y ago
  Poor choice of words on my part. I meant British occupation of the region at the time and a promise by the British of the establishment of a home for Jewish ppl in the region. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I’m not anti-Israel. Im saying that ppl shouldn’t be shocked that there was a hostile response by neighboring Arab nations when Jewish ppl asserted their claim to a new state in the region. Basically what I did a terrible job of trying to get at is - that Israel isn’t special. Try create a new state anywhere and ppl around that area will get mad, doubly so if your beliefs don’t align.
  - NeverFade 6y ago
    > and a promise by the British of the establishment of a home for Jewish ppl in the region. That promise meant next to nothing. The British actually tried to confiscate all the weapons held by the Jewish population before leaving Israel. They fully expected (and arguably, intended and hoped) that the Jews would lose to the Arabs in the ensuing war. > Im saying that ppl shouldn’t be shocked I think people "shouldn't be shocked" by the 1948 attack, and the many ensuing attacks, because the Middle East is a tribal region, has been such for centuries, and the Jews are a minority there. The Middle East has been an arena of ethnic and religious conflict for over 2,000 years, after all.
golemiprague 6y ago
Take land from who? The land was under ottoman rule for 400 years before the British mandate and had a consistent Jewish presence there since biblical times. Most of the so called "Palestinians" are not native to the land, many of them were "undocumented" immigrants which moved there after the Jews started to redevelop the area by buying land, unlike the Arabs who took everything by force, not to mention the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the whole of the middle east that is not Israel. In general Arabs are invaders and colonialists in the Levant which was always part of the fertile crescent and the Mediterranean rather than connected to the desert Arabs. The hate to Israel is purely based on religion and tribalism and started long before Israel was formed.
slavak 6y ago
That argument would be more convincing if many of the attacking countries weren't created by the same foreign powers in exactly the same way around the same time. The borders of Lebanon were set by the French in 1920 as part of the Mandate of Syria and Lebanon. It was recognized as independent by the French in 1941, and the French Mandate more or less dissolved following the end of WWII. The borders of Syria were similarly drawn up by the French in 1920 under the same Mandate. French troops would not evacuate the territory until 1946. The territory of Jordan was drawn up by the British around 1915, and they are also the ones that created the distinction between the territories of Palestine and Transjordan. It gained a measure of independence in 1922, but remained under British Mandate until 1946, when it was granted independence with The Treaty of London. In fact, of Israel's 4 immediate neighbors by land, Egypt is the only one to have existed as any kind of autonomously governed territory prior to the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the assumption of responsibility by occupying European powers. The entire region was basically re-drawn and carved up by foreign powers following the end of WWI pretty much by necessity, since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire left an enormous power vacuum. Far from being an anomaly, Israel's creation is actually pretty consistent with the area overall.

josh_fyi 6y ago

Foreign powers did not create Israel. Jews did. > carved out a new action state to give to Native Americans I rather like the idea that Native Americans could have their own country if they choose, as Jews do now, something better than reservations. China and Russia have nothing to do with it.

0x49fa98 6y ago
that must be why the Mizrahi are treated so well in their own country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#Disparities_and_integration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#Disparities_and_i...
- NeverFade 6y ago
  Love it when a bunch of new users join the discussion to spread anti-Israeli propaganda. Israel isn't perfect, and has its own internal tensions, much like the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and basically every other nation. Trying to use these tensions as a wholesale argument against Israel is like claiming Sweden is an illegitimate country since it's going through social tensions and unrest due to immigration right now.
  - captain_price7 6y ago
    > Love it when a bunch of new users join the discussion to spread anti-Israeli propaganda. You've made like 10 comments in this thread. I'm not accusing you of anything. But before you accuse others of "propaganda", maybe take a look at yourself and see who's behaving somewhat suspiciously in this thread.
    - zthrowaway 6y ago
      Participating in a discussion on a topic you have knowledge around is suspicious now?
    - NeverFade 6y ago
      I've made probably 30 comments in the last thread in which I participated, which had exactly zero to do with Israel. Unlike these new users, I have a history of comments on the site, and I have not joined today just to engage in this very specific thread. Yet you try to paint me as the suspicious one...
  - bjourne 6y ago
    > Israel isn't perfect, and has its own internal tensions, much like the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and basically every other nation. The level of racism in Israel is unique among Western nations: * 53% of Israelis say Arabs should be encouraged to leave. Only 51% think they deserve equal rights. 46% say that they would not want to live near Arabs [1]. * 52% of Israeli Jews thinks African migrants are "a cancer" [2]. * 96% of Israeli Jews would be uncomfortable with their child marrying a Muslim, 89% say this about a Christian [3] * 72% of all Israeli Jews thinks it is more important to keep Israel a Jewish majority than to keep Israel democratic [4]. [1] https://www.jpost.com/national-news/53-percent-of-israelis-say-arabs-should-be-encouraged-to-leave-197436 https://www.jpost.com/national-news/53-percent-of-israelis-s... [2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israeli-jews-agree-africans-are-a-cancer/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israeli-jews-agree-africa... [3] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/04/religious-groups-in-israel-keep-to-themselves-when-it-comes-to-marriages-and-friendships-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/04/religious-g... [4] https://www.dohainstitute.org/en/lists/ACRPS-PDFDocumentLibrary/An_Analysis_of_Israeli_public.pdf https://www.dohainstitute.org/en/lists/ACRPS-PDFDocumentLibr... > Trying to use these tensions as a wholesale argument against Israel is like claiming Sweden is an illegitimate country since it's going through social tensions and unrest due to immigration right now. The tell-tale sign of a right-wing bigot is that they use the uninformed "what about Sweden!"-argument. The idea that immigration of brown-skinned people is a threat to their country because, apparently, and unknown to most Swedes, immigration has caused Sweden to collapse.
arken 6y ago
Forgive me, but that’s a pretty one sided view to take. The local Jewish population was certainly instrumental as were Zionist groups in the UK and elsewhere. But you’re fooling yourself if you think great power diplomacy and the region’s colonial history weren’t also important factors. I’d encourage you to look into the history of the British mandate, the Balfour Declaration, and the lead up to the 1947 Partition Plan/1948 War. It’s a fascinating story if nothing else.
- NeverFade 6y ago
  The British mandate authorities outlawed all Jewish defense forces and tried to confiscate all arms from the Jewish population before they left the region. They also actively prevented Jews from immigrating to Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939 https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-restrictions-on-jewish-immigration-to-palestine https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-restrictions-on... To claim that the British were "a foreign power" that helped the budding nation of Israel is, simply put, the opposite of historical fact.
  - arken 6y ago
    That doesn’t mean the British state played no role. Are you saying the Balfour Declaration had no impact on developments in the region from 1917-1947? I’m not saying the formation of Israel was 100% the result of intentional British foreign policy. Foreign policy is messy and inconsistent. The various actors in the region were seeking different things at different times. Yes the British were in some cases trying to disarm Jewish militants, but in many cases they were also the ones who had handed out the arms in the first place (eg. The Jewish Brigade). I don’t see how you can dispute that this a messy, contested historical saga with many factors to consider. I urge you to read more widely on this topic. If you’re so certain that your position is the correct one, you stand only to confirm your existing beliefs.
    - NeverFade 6y ago

flyinglizard 6y ago

Jews were not invaders. Jews were their neighbors. See the 1929 Hebron massacre as an example.

NeverFade 6y ago

> So a bunch of foreign powers What "bunch of foreign powers", exactly? Have a look at that Wikipedia article. No other "power" was fighting for Israel, as it was attacked by Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. This narrative of "invasion" and "stealing land" is entirely false and irrelevant to 1948. Iraq doesn't share a border with Israel, neither do Saudi Arabia or Yemen. Israel also didn't claim any territory from any of the others. It was just tribal warfare, pure and simple. The Arabs didn't like the Jews, so they attacked them. Folks like to assume that Israel was "helped" by various "foreign powers", notably the US. The reality? Not only did the US not help, but Israel was under a US arms embargo since its inception in 1948. The alliance between the US and Israel only started when Israel decisively won the 1967 war, because at that point the US figured it was in its best interest to ally with Israel.

bit_flip 6y ago
Poor choice of words on my part. I meant British occupation of the region at the time and a promise by the British of the establishment of a home for Jewish ppl in the region. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I’m not anti-Israel. Im saying that ppl shouldn’t be shocked that there was a hostile response by neighboring Arab nations when Jewish ppl asserted their claim to a new state in the region. Basically what I did a terrible job of trying to get at is - that Israel isn’t special. Try create a new state anywhere and ppl around that area will get mad, doubly so if your beliefs don’t align.
- NeverFade 6y ago
  > and a promise by the British of the establishment of a home for Jewish ppl in the region. That promise meant next to nothing. The British actually tried to confiscate all the weapons held by the Jewish population before leaving Israel. They fully expected (and arguably, intended and hoped) that the Jews would lose to the Arabs in the ensuing war. > Im saying that ppl shouldn’t be shocked I think people "shouldn't be shocked" by the 1948 attack, and the many ensuing attacks, because the Middle East is a tribal region, has been such for centuries, and the Jews are a minority there. The Middle East has been an arena of ethnic and religious conflict for over 2,000 years, after all.

golemiprague 6y ago

Take land from who? The land was under ottoman rule for 400 years before the British mandate and had a consistent Jewish presence there since biblical times. Most of the so called "Palestinians" are not native to the land, many of them were "undocumented" immigrants which moved there after the Jews started to redevelop the area by buying land, unlike the Arabs who took everything by force, not to mention the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the whole of the middle east that is not Israel. In general Arabs are invaders and colonialists in the Levant which was always part of the fertile crescent and the Mediterranean rather than connected to the desert Arabs. The hate to Israel is purely based on religion and tribalism and started long before Israel was formed.

slavak 6y ago

That argument would be more convincing if many of the attacking countries weren't created by the same foreign powers in exactly the same way around the same time. The borders of Lebanon were set by the French in 1920 as part of the Mandate of Syria and Lebanon. It was recognized as independent by the French in 1941, and the French Mandate more or less dissolved following the end of WWII. The borders of Syria were similarly drawn up by the French in 1920 under the same Mandate. French troops would not evacuate the territory until 1946. The territory of Jordan was drawn up by the British around 1915, and they are also the ones that created the distinction between the territories of Palestine and Transjordan. It gained a measure of independence in 1922, but remained under British Mandate until 1946, when it was granted independence with The Treaty of London. In fact, of Israel's 4 immediate neighbors by land, Egypt is the only one to have existed as any kind of autonomously governed territory prior to the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the assumption of responsibility by occupying European powers. The entire region was basically re-drawn and carved up by foreign powers following the end of WWI pretty much by necessity, since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire left an enormous power vacuum. Far from being an anomaly, Israel's creation is actually pretty consistent with the area overall.