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I think any reasonable person can look at what's happening with the Uyghurs and only come to the conclusion that it's appalling. The only real defense here is t

by cletus 6y ago

I think any reasonable person can look at what's happening with the Uyghurs and only come to the conclusion that it's appalling. The only real defense here is that the reports of it happening are untrue or exaggerated and I think at this point we have ample evidence that's not the case. So let's set that issue aside and look at the more general problem of polarization as that has wider implications. Fact is, most people in the US (as one example) don't give a shit about genocide halfway around the world beyond maybe some slacktivism in liking a social media post about it every now and again. So I'm not Chinese but as an outsider looking in who is not an expert by any stretch of the imagination this is what I see: I see a culture that within living memory came out of a period of severe instability, hunger and turmoil. China now under pseudo-Communist rule has entered a period of stability and prosperity for a significant portion of the population. Because that's so recent there seems to be (heavy IMHO here) a cultural fear of that going prosperity going away. I don't want to trivialize this by any means but you see something roughly analogous to this with people who grew up poor vs those who didn't, even if those people who grew up poor have money now. Just having that experience of growing up without food or housing security changes you. It changes your relationship to money. So what I see is there's an awful lot of Chinese people who look at any issue relating to China through this lens: anything remotely critical of China is an attack on that prosperity. So anything critical of China on HN (comments or posts) will attract a certain level of automatic downvote on any hot button issue (eg Uyghurs, Taiwan, Hong Kong, the origins of Covid-19). The lesson here I think is in how dangerous things become when a large group of people become fearful. As an example, in the US today you have polarization because people fan the flames of fear. The Trump base is one who fears their way of life is under attack, exploited quite masterfully where any demonstrable proof that Trump himself is by any objective measure a horrible human being gets labelled as "fake news" and people eat it up because that's what they want to believe. And they want to believe that because they've bought into this culture of fear. I just hope we're not all screwed.

CyanBird 6y ago
> I think any reasonable person can look at what's happening with the Uyghurs and only come to the conclusion that it's appalling Maybe, yeah Detention for fear of terrorism is bad when the US did it with Japanese born citizens in Wwii and it is bad when it was done in Guantánamo, and it is bad now That said, why are the supposed witnesses to these crimes changing their histories and narratives to make it seem like a B type horror movie rather than stick to their original telling of it? I can't but remember the Nariyah Testimony in front of Congress https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-but-also-bite-all-over-your-body-horror-stories-told-by-chinese-defectors-contin.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-bu...
dirtyid 6y ago
> large group of people become fearful What you're witnessing is new generations of PRC citizens with both access and experience in east and west finally realizing what citizens from global south that's been fucked by western foreign policy and news reporting have long realized: west is not the the bastion of morality it purports to be. The rampant unconditional western worship in PRC of the 80s-90s has ended, there's mass disillusionment with western systems and fatigue of western models with each hypocritical selective application i.e. weaponizing human rights. There's tons of Chinese users, either millions who hopped the wall or millions of diaspora whose finally engaging not because they are afraid, but because they're shocked by how brainwashed the west is and they're clapping back. > ample evidence that's not the case We have western manufactured consent mechanism regurgitating "evidence" and narratives that exaggerates (in both numbers and atrocity) a very repressive system from what it is, cultural genocide that has no diplomatic consequences, to what it's not, genocide which does. It's generic western self-serving human rights geopolitics. XJ propaganda has to engineer genocide label, because if it was merely crimes against humanity then it's unprosecutable, by consensus and design, otherwise many western countries would have to pay for their own atrocities. Also queue comparisons to Nazi Germany when it's more comparable to US prison industrial complex for minorities repression/management with no greater global outrage. China loves to copy US after all. Not to mention how many people latch onto the genocide label even though it is by far the minority global position on the oppose vs support continuum. The plurality is "support", not support genocide, but support Chinese XJ counter-terrorism. Let that sink in, it takes particular blindness to assume the LEAST endorsed position (not even minority) as default, but here we are.
- cletus 6y ago
  The typical term for your position is “butwhataboutism”, used to great effect in the Trump era. So when someone points out something like the suppression of the Uyghurs and you point out “but what about atrocities committed by Western countries?” that’s a distraction where you’re trying to divert attention to an unrelated issue. The USA committed atrocities against native Americans, engaged in centuries of slavery, interned Japanese citizens in WWII and dropped atomic bombs on civilians. All of that is true. But just because it’s true it doesn’t negate or excuse Chinese human rights abuses.

by cletus 6y ago

CyanBird 6y ago

> I think any reasonable person can look at what's happening with the Uyghurs and only come to the conclusion that it's appalling Maybe, yeah Detention for fear of terrorism is bad when the US did it with Japanese born citizens in Wwii and it is bad when it was done in Guantánamo, and it is bad now That said, why are the supposed witnesses to these crimes changing their histories and narratives to make it seem like a B type horror movie rather than stick to their original telling of it? I can't but remember the Nariyah Testimony in front of Congress https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-but-also-bite-all-over-your-body-horror-stories-told-by-chinese-defectors-contin.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-bu...

dirtyid 6y ago

> large group of people become fearful What you're witnessing is new generations of PRC citizens with both access and experience in east and west finally realizing what citizens from global south that's been fucked by western foreign policy and news reporting have long realized: west is not the the bastion of morality it purports to be. The rampant unconditional western worship in PRC of the 80s-90s has ended, there's mass disillusionment with western systems and fatigue of western models with each hypocritical selective application i.e. weaponizing human rights. There's tons of Chinese users, either millions who hopped the wall or millions of diaspora whose finally engaging not because they are afraid, but because they're shocked by how brainwashed the west is and they're clapping back. > ample evidence that's not the case We have western manufactured consent mechanism regurgitating "evidence" and narratives that exaggerates (in both numbers and atrocity) a very repressive system from what it is, cultural genocide that has no diplomatic consequences, to what it's not, genocide which does. It's generic western self-serving human rights geopolitics. XJ propaganda has to engineer genocide label, because if it was merely crimes against humanity then it's unprosecutable, by consensus and design, otherwise many western countries would have to pay for their own atrocities. Also queue comparisons to Nazi Germany when it's more comparable to US prison industrial complex for minorities repression/management with no greater global outrage. China loves to copy US after all. Not to mention how many people latch onto the genocide label even though it is by far the minority global position on the oppose vs support continuum. The plurality is "support", not support genocide, but support Chinese XJ counter-terrorism. Let that sink in, it takes particular blindness to assume the LEAST endorsed position (not even minority) as default, but here we are.

cletus 6y ago
The typical term for your position is “butwhataboutism”, used to great effect in the Trump era. So when someone points out something like the suppression of the Uyghurs and you point out “but what about atrocities committed by Western countries?” that’s a distraction where you’re trying to divert attention to an unrelated issue. The USA committed atrocities against native Americans, engaged in centuries of slavery, interned Japanese citizens in WWII and dropped atomic bombs on civilians. All of that is true. But just because it’s true it doesn’t negate or excuse Chinese human rights abuses.