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Selling Turkey a WhatsApp 0day and operating the C&C servers for use in a war zone isn't contributing to peace and Israels survival, it's a war crime. NSO emplo

Selling Turkey a WhatsApp 0day and operating the C&C servers for use in a war zone isn't contributing to peace and Israels survival, it's a war crime. NSO employees should probably be jailed the moment they leave the country.

NeverFade 6y ago
How about all the employees of all the other companies involved in the exact same activities? Sorry, I forgot, we're only targeting the Israelis. Literally the exact same action is tolerated when anyone else performs it, but when some Israeli company does, it's a "warcrime" and they must be "jailed". Chinese authorities are putting millions of minorities in prison re-education camps. Where are the calls to prosecute them for war-crimes? Nah, they just get thank-you notes in Disney movie credits, instead. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/08/disney-thanked-groups-linked-to-china-detention-camps-in-mulan-credits.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/08/disney-thanked-groups-linked...
- techfoolery 6y ago
  C'mon guy, that's not good faith argument. I have a whole twitter full of folks calling for war crimes against what China's doing; Not to mention, Disney got plenty of backlash for that move from the people paying attention. (Google Disney Xinjiang and it's so ubiquitous I don't feel the need to link myself) Seems your problem is more with mainstream media. You're deflecting from the argument at hand here. Not to mention, the wrongs of the Israeli cybersec industry, like with NSO group, seem much less covered than Xinjiang genocide (to me, but I'm sure there's ways to quantify the coverage differential)
  - NeverFade 6y ago
    My point is that there's a massive propaganda campaign targeted specifically at Israel. Many Western and non-Western nations are developing these kinds of tools. They are not at all unique to Israel. Yet again and again, we are exposed to publications targeting Israeli companies, specifically. This article doesn't even try to hide the fact that it is focused on Israel as a nation, while several other nations operate in this space. > Disney got plenty of backlash for that move from the people paying attention "So much backlash", yet nothing has been done. Mulan is still distributed, and that thank-you note to Chinese authorities who build and maintain massive prison camps is still there. It's almost like all these "moral concerns" are just thinly-veiled real politics.
    - Cederfjard 6y ago
      And the Israelis are also still going about their business without real obstruction from Western powers, aren’t they, much like the Chinese?
      - NeverFade 6y ago
        Israeli private company created some surveillance tools, which is not illegal. Chinese state authorities imprisoned over a million minorities in prison camps, forcibly sterilizing women. False equivalence much?
        Cederfjard 6y ago
        I’m staying out of the larger discussion, I was specifically talking about what you said: > "So much backlash", yet nothing has been done. I’m not sure that’s a sound argument here, because nothing is ”being done” about any of the actors mentioned, really.
        NeverFade 6y ago
        Disney could remove that thank-you note from the Mulan credits. It didn't. That's the same Disney that takes action against any works in its catalog that have any trace of supposed racism. So, Disney tirelessly takes action against dubious subtle traces of racism in 60+ year old works, but won't take any action against real racism subjecting millions of people in China, right now. In fact it embraces this current racism. Why? Because Disney wants the lucrative Chinese market and needs to play nice, cooperate with, and sometimes even praise the CCP which operates these racist prison camps. So all the moral outrage against racism in the Muppets etc is just meaningless virtue signalling. Everyone is really doing what is in their best interest, but sometimes it is beneficial to dress that up for PR purposes. Which is my point.
        Cederfjard 6y ago
        Agreed on all of those specifics, sure.
upbeat_general 6y ago
How justifying the actions you mentioned but how is that a war crime? Seems more like ‘war’ than a ‘war crime’
- stefan_ 6y ago
  If you are Raytheon and you sell someone a rocket, maybe come to their country and teach their personnel how to fire it, that's fine. When they decide to use it, you are not involved. That is decidedly not what NSO is doing. They run the C&C servers.
  - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
    You are entitled to your own definition of what is and what is not a war crime, but the rest of the world is not obligated to agreed with you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime Asssuming they are running C&C servers as you suggest, which international law of war did that break?
    - stefan_ 6y ago
      They are mercenaries, of course.

NeverFade 6y ago

How about all the employees of all the other companies involved in the exact same activities? Sorry, I forgot, we're only targeting the Israelis. Literally the exact same action is tolerated when anyone else performs it, but when some Israeli company does, it's a "warcrime" and they must be "jailed". Chinese authorities are putting millions of minorities in prison re-education camps. Where are the calls to prosecute them for war-crimes? Nah, they just get thank-you notes in Disney movie credits, instead. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/08/disney-thanked-groups-linked-to-china-detention-camps-in-mulan-credits.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/08/disney-thanked-groups-linked...

techfoolery 6y ago
C'mon guy, that's not good faith argument. I have a whole twitter full of folks calling for war crimes against what China's doing; Not to mention, Disney got plenty of backlash for that move from the people paying attention. (Google Disney Xinjiang and it's so ubiquitous I don't feel the need to link myself) Seems your problem is more with mainstream media. You're deflecting from the argument at hand here. Not to mention, the wrongs of the Israeli cybersec industry, like with NSO group, seem much less covered than Xinjiang genocide (to me, but I'm sure there's ways to quantify the coverage differential)
- NeverFade 6y ago
  My point is that there's a massive propaganda campaign targeted specifically at Israel. Many Western and non-Western nations are developing these kinds of tools. They are not at all unique to Israel. Yet again and again, we are exposed to publications targeting Israeli companies, specifically. This article doesn't even try to hide the fact that it is focused on Israel as a nation, while several other nations operate in this space. > Disney got plenty of backlash for that move from the people paying attention "So much backlash", yet nothing has been done. Mulan is still distributed, and that thank-you note to Chinese authorities who build and maintain massive prison camps is still there. It's almost like all these "moral concerns" are just thinly-veiled real politics.
  - Cederfjard 6y ago
    And the Israelis are also still going about their business without real obstruction from Western powers, aren’t they, much like the Chinese?
    - NeverFade 6y ago
      Israeli private company created some surveillance tools, which is not illegal. Chinese state authorities imprisoned over a million minorities in prison camps, forcibly sterilizing women. False equivalence much?
      - Cederfjard 6y ago
        I’m staying out of the larger discussion, I was specifically talking about what you said: > "So much backlash", yet nothing has been done. I’m not sure that’s a sound argument here, because nothing is ”being done” about any of the actors mentioned, really.
        NeverFade 6y ago
        Disney could remove that thank-you note from the Mulan credits. It didn't. That's the same Disney that takes action against any works in its catalog that have any trace of supposed racism. So, Disney tirelessly takes action against dubious subtle traces of racism in 60+ year old works, but won't take any action against real racism subjecting millions of people in China, right now. In fact it embraces this current racism. Why? Because Disney wants the lucrative Chinese market and needs to play nice, cooperate with, and sometimes even praise the CCP which operates these racist prison camps. So all the moral outrage against racism in the Muppets etc is just meaningless virtue signalling. Everyone is really doing what is in their best interest, but sometimes it is beneficial to dress that up for PR purposes. Which is my point.
        Cederfjard 6y ago
        Agreed on all of those specifics, sure.

upbeat_general 6y ago

How justifying the actions you mentioned but how is that a war crime? Seems more like ‘war’ than a ‘war crime’

stefan_ 6y ago
If you are Raytheon and you sell someone a rocket, maybe come to their country and teach their personnel how to fire it, that's fine. When they decide to use it, you are not involved. That is decidedly not what NSO is doing. They run the C&C servers.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  You are entitled to your own definition of what is and what is not a war crime, but the rest of the world is not obligated to agreed with you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime Asssuming they are running C&C servers as you suggest, which international law of war did that break?
  - stefan_ 6y ago
    They are mercenaries, of course.