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What's probably missing from the article is the giant caveat of almost all educational research, which is: as measured by grades

What's probably missing from the article is the giant caveat of almost all educational research, which is: *as measured by grades*

guerrilla 6y ago
It's in the title. That's what it means.
- after_care 6y ago
  Grades aren’t great at measuring real learning, but it’s the best we have.
  - Enginerrrd 6y ago
    Not really. I'd argue that standardized tests are much better than grades. Particularly for any grade level below university. At university level, the grades are more accurate (but still flawed) because the grade is typically 70-80% test and quiz based. My experience in the US with grades for middle school and high school is that it's 85-90% non-examination based-- Meaning it's essentially a measure for how well you can complete and turn in the busy work on time. That's a great measure for conscientiousness, but the standardized tests will show who actually learned the material.
    - boringg 6y ago
      Then you have a population training for the test and you end up with people that are overfit for the standardized test and underfit for reality.
      - thepete2 6y ago
        Yes, this. Not to say that fitness for test and fitness for reality aren't correlated. They just aren't the same. All in all I just wonder if we don't overvalue competition (the reason I we probably have grades) and undervalue passion.
      - jl2718 6y ago
        What about the classroom has anything to do with reality? If anything, the extent of the failure of any adult organization is perhaps the extent to which it has borrowed ideas from social programming in the classroom.
    - thepete2 6y ago
      Except if people actually prepare for the standardized tests in some way or another as is usually the case ... "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." Your point is still valid though, I find university test scores more "accurate" too, whatever that means for learning.
      - Siira 6y ago
        Preparing to solve questions in STEM subjects is what learning STEM is all about.
        audunw 6y ago
        The problem is what those questions are. Are you expected to memorize a formula or are you expected to solve a real problem, possibly with the formulas available in a cheat sheet? My wife grew up with a lot of testing in asia. Now working as a teacher in northern europe she finds the approach here way better for actually learning, where there's less focus on memorizing things, and more on problem solving. The thing is, it's harder to make tests for problem solving, so tests tend to favor memorizing, especially when there's a lot of it. It's not just about making the questions, it's about grading them and making a judgement about whether the student took the right approach despite getting the wrong answer. How do you standardize that? I'm not sure what's standard, but at my university we often had exams with either formula books and/or a cheat sheet we could prepare ourselves. Yet the math tests were way more challenging for me than the simpler tests without access to material we had in high school.
        jl2718 6y ago
        I’m not sure about that. The goal is to make something. I’ve come to appreciate Joe Gebbia’s description of art school as likely superior to my STEM education.
    - jackson1442 6y ago
      Depends on the exam. If we're using something like the SAT or ACT, I can agree with that statement to an extent, but if it's a state exam, those are frequently flawed[1]. I think it's the best we can do though, since while people frequently bemoan any exam as testing one's ability to take exams, I've never seen a better alternative proposed. [1]: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article1952700.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article1952...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Alex3917 6y ago
"A grade can be regarded only as an inadequate report of an inaccurate judgment by a biased and variable judge of the extent to which a student has attained an undefined level of mastery of an unknown proportion of an indefinite amount of material." In reality, boys may well be learning more than girls in school, maybe even substantially more.
agumonkey 6y ago
There was an article/study saying girl grades were shifted due to teacher appreciating their answers as better. I'm not sure how solid the study is (I still fail to understand how grades can shift for a whole group of pupill) but yeah grades can be fickle.

What's probably missing from the article is the giant caveat of almost all educational research, which is: *as measured by grades*

guerrilla 6y ago

It's in the title. That's what it means.

after_care 6y ago
Grades aren’t great at measuring real learning, but it’s the best we have.
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  Not really. I'd argue that standardized tests are much better than grades. Particularly for any grade level below university. At university level, the grades are more accurate (but still flawed) because the grade is typically 70-80% test and quiz based. My experience in the US with grades for middle school and high school is that it's 85-90% non-examination based-- Meaning it's essentially a measure for how well you can complete and turn in the busy work on time. That's a great measure for conscientiousness, but the standardized tests will show who actually learned the material.
  - boringg 6y ago
    Then you have a population training for the test and you end up with people that are overfit for the standardized test and underfit for reality.
    - thepete2 6y ago
      Yes, this. Not to say that fitness for test and fitness for reality aren't correlated. They just aren't the same. All in all I just wonder if we don't overvalue competition (the reason I we probably have grades) and undervalue passion.
    - jl2718 6y ago
      What about the classroom has anything to do with reality? If anything, the extent of the failure of any adult organization is perhaps the extent to which it has borrowed ideas from social programming in the classroom.
  - thepete2 6y ago
    Except if people actually prepare for the standardized tests in some way or another as is usually the case ... "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." Your point is still valid though, I find university test scores more "accurate" too, whatever that means for learning.
    - Siira 6y ago
      Preparing to solve questions in STEM subjects is what learning STEM is all about.
      - audunw 6y ago
        The problem is what those questions are. Are you expected to memorize a formula or are you expected to solve a real problem, possibly with the formulas available in a cheat sheet? My wife grew up with a lot of testing in asia. Now working as a teacher in northern europe she finds the approach here way better for actually learning, where there's less focus on memorizing things, and more on problem solving. The thing is, it's harder to make tests for problem solving, so tests tend to favor memorizing, especially when there's a lot of it. It's not just about making the questions, it's about grading them and making a judgement about whether the student took the right approach despite getting the wrong answer. How do you standardize that? I'm not sure what's standard, but at my university we often had exams with either formula books and/or a cheat sheet we could prepare ourselves. Yet the math tests were way more challenging for me than the simpler tests without access to material we had in high school.
      - jl2718 6y ago
        I’m not sure about that. The goal is to make something. I’ve come to appreciate Joe Gebbia’s description of art school as likely superior to my STEM education.
  - jackson1442 6y ago
    Depends on the exam. If we're using something like the SAT or ACT, I can agree with that statement to an extent, but if it's a state exam, those are frequently flawed[1]. I think it's the best we can do though, since while people frequently bemoan any exam as testing one's ability to take exams, I've never seen a better alternative proposed. [1]: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article1952700.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article1952...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Alex3917 6y ago

"A grade can be regarded only as an inadequate report of an inaccurate judgment by a biased and variable judge of the extent to which a student has attained an undefined level of mastery of an unknown proportion of an indefinite amount of material." In reality, boys may well be learning more than girls in school, maybe even substantially more.

agumonkey 6y ago

There was an article/study saying girl grades were shifted due to teacher appreciating their answers as better. I'm not sure how solid the study is (I still fail to understand how grades can shift for a whole group of pupill) but yeah grades can be fickle.