6 ms·

Is there am American industry that is heavily unionized that is globally competitive? Education, policing, auto manufacturing, and steel come to mind for me as

Is there am American industry that is heavily unionized that is globally competitive? Education, policing, auto manufacturing, and steel come to mind for me as both heavily unionized and significantly poorer quality in America relative to comparable peers. Maybe the entertainment industry though? I'm genuinely curious

asdff 6y ago
I'd argue autoworkers and steel workers in America probably die less than their more productive and globally competitive peers in countries like China.
- igorstellar 6y ago
  The original question was about industry competitiveness. First thing that comes to mind is Google but their unionizing is just starting.
- schnevets 6y ago
  And let's not forget automotive unions exist in Japan, Germany, and other countries that dominate the industry.
sangnoir 6y ago
> Is there am American industry that is heavily unionized that is globally competitive? Hollywood. Everyone from the highest paid stars to the set-builders are union members - you literally cannot say a word on film if you're not union, and Hollywood is globally competitive in spite of (or because of?) this. The talent is still able to negotiate individually (a common, yet inaccurate aspersion thrown at unions is that someone will take over role of negotiations - but that's just for the baseline) For contrast, the ancillary VFX industry is not unionized, and there are endless horror stories of exploitation there.
woodgrainz 6y ago
Most large newspapers in the US are unionized. Like the NY Times (https://www.nyguild.org/ https://www.nyguild.org/) and the Washington Post (https://postguild.org/ https://postguild.org/) for example. News orgs are obviously facing difficult times but many journalists are in unions.
- codekansas 6y ago
  Woah, didn't know that, neat
cma 6y ago
American Medical Association and various state medical boards, various legal bars, AICPA, CFA Institute, various academic accreditation institutes form a kind of network that even accredits colleges that still practice alumni preference (almost all of them)--a sort of union seniority rule that extends beyond into familial offspring. Most upper-middle class stuff is heavily protected by union like organizations, many of which restrict membership count and lobby against immigration in their field based on maintaining salary levels and their standards of living.
- pg_bot 6y ago
  None of these are unions, what you are referring to is occupational licensing and professional associations.
- codekansas 6y ago
  It's questionable whether or not America's healthcare system would be considered "globally competitive" though. We do have top-tier medical research but there's a lot of waste too
dublinben 6y ago
The US major professional sports leagues are all unionized.[0] Upcoming exceptions like UFC are notorious for their exploitation of athletes.[1] [0] https://libguides.rutgers.edu/c.php?g=336678&p=2267003 https://libguides.rutgers.edu/c.php?g=336678&p=2267003 [1] https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2020/4/1/21201936/ufc-coronavirus-pandemic-labor-exploitation-dana-white-trump-politics-mma-feature https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2020/4/1/21201936/ufc-coronaviru...
blang 6y ago
The NBA
BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
Two things: 1. Many labor organizations do not consider police and prison guard unions to be legitimate labor unions, because police represent and enforce the interests of the ruling class not of the labor class and have historically been weaponized footsoldiers brought in specifically to brutalize organized labor movements. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-labor-movement https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-l... has a moderately good exposition of the subject. If you don't like overt editorial politicization, skip the first paragraph. 2. I think you have to clarify what you mean by "competitive". If you start from the premise that no advancement or profit is worth stepping on the necks of people with less power, then the only metric that makes sense for evaluating organized labor is fair treatment of the laborers. You will _of_course_ get more coal out of the ground faster and cheaper if, for instance, you use slaves or have zero rules protecting the health and safety of the miners. But you get that exactly by abusing the health and safety of the miners. So does one value cheap coal or not killing people? If one values only price above all else, then of course treating laborers well comes at a cost. I don't think we have a general sense that Chinese labor is treated well despite being an economic powerhouse because everything from there is cheaper and we just _really_ love to externalize costs. Also, don't we regularly have scandals where steel from China fails to meet some quality standard and causes bridges and buildings to collapse? Is it competitive to produce something dangerous for less money? If less up-front cost is the primary goal, then yes. Should that be the goal?
- codekansas 6y ago
  By competitive I mean that America does a better job at that thing than other countries, e.g. the examples I listed
  - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
    But better job in what way? Better job at treating workers fairly? Better job at cutting cost at the expense of worker treatment? "Better" is not universal.
specialist 6y ago
Nicely spotted. The decline of American industry tracks nicely with the decline of Labor.

asdff 6y ago

I'd argue autoworkers and steel workers in America probably die less than their more productive and globally competitive peers in countries like China.

igorstellar 6y ago
The original question was about industry competitiveness. First thing that comes to mind is Google but their unionizing is just starting.
schnevets 6y ago
And let's not forget automotive unions exist in Japan, Germany, and other countries that dominate the industry.

sangnoir 6y ago

> Is there am American industry that is heavily unionized that is globally competitive? Hollywood. Everyone from the highest paid stars to the set-builders are union members - you literally cannot say a word on film if you're not union, and Hollywood is globally competitive in spite of (or because of?) this. The talent is still able to negotiate individually (a common, yet inaccurate aspersion thrown at unions is that someone will take over role of negotiations - but that's just for the baseline) For contrast, the ancillary VFX industry is not unionized, and there are endless horror stories of exploitation there.

woodgrainz 6y ago

Most large newspapers in the US are unionized. Like the NY Times (https://www.nyguild.org/ https://www.nyguild.org/) and the Washington Post (https://postguild.org/ https://postguild.org/) for example. News orgs are obviously facing difficult times but many journalists are in unions.

codekansas 6y ago
Woah, didn't know that, neat

cma 6y ago

American Medical Association and various state medical boards, various legal bars, AICPA, CFA Institute, various academic accreditation institutes form a kind of network that even accredits colleges that still practice alumni preference (almost all of them)--a sort of union seniority rule that extends beyond into familial offspring. Most upper-middle class stuff is heavily protected by union like organizations, many of which restrict membership count and lobby against immigration in their field based on maintaining salary levels and their standards of living.

pg_bot 6y ago
None of these are unions, what you are referring to is occupational licensing and professional associations.
codekansas 6y ago
It's questionable whether or not America's healthcare system would be considered "globally competitive" though. We do have top-tier medical research but there's a lot of waste too

dublinben 6y ago

The US major professional sports leagues are all unionized.[0] Upcoming exceptions like UFC are notorious for their exploitation of athletes.[1] [0] https://libguides.rutgers.edu/c.php?g=336678&p=2267003 https://libguides.rutgers.edu/c.php?g=336678&p=2267003 [1] https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2020/4/1/21201936/ufc-coronavirus-pandemic-labor-exploitation-dana-white-trump-politics-mma-feature https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2020/4/1/21201936/ufc-coronaviru...

blang 6y ago

The NBA

BugsJustFindMe 6y ago

Two things: 1. Many labor organizations do not consider police and prison guard unions to be legitimate labor unions, because police represent and enforce the interests of the ruling class not of the labor class and have historically been weaponized footsoldiers brought in specifically to brutalize organized labor movements. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-labor-movement https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-l... has a moderately good exposition of the subject. If you don't like overt editorial politicization, skip the first paragraph. 2. I think you have to clarify what you mean by "competitive". If you start from the premise that no advancement or profit is worth stepping on the necks of people with less power, then the only metric that makes sense for evaluating organized labor is fair treatment of the laborers. You will _of_course_ get more coal out of the ground faster and cheaper if, for instance, you use slaves or have zero rules protecting the health and safety of the miners. But you get that exactly by abusing the health and safety of the miners. So does one value cheap coal or not killing people? If one values only price above all else, then of course treating laborers well comes at a cost. I don't think we have a general sense that Chinese labor is treated well despite being an economic powerhouse because everything from there is cheaper and we just _really_ love to externalize costs. Also, don't we regularly have scandals where steel from China fails to meet some quality standard and causes bridges and buildings to collapse? Is it competitive to produce something dangerous for less money? If less up-front cost is the primary goal, then yes. Should that be the goal?

codekansas 6y ago
By competitive I mean that America does a better job at that thing than other countries, e.g. the examples I listed
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  But better job in what way? Better job at treating workers fairly? Better job at cutting cost at the expense of worker treatment? "Better" is not universal.

specialist 6y ago

Nicely spotted. The decline of American industry tracks nicely with the decline of Labor.