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Recently I came to realization that unions may be an obstacle to $15 minimum wage, universal healthcare and overall improvement of work environment. It seems b

Recently I came to realization that unions may be an obstacle to $15 minimum wage, universal healthcare and overall improvement of work environment. It seems backwards at first, unions after all are supposed to protect the workers. However, union to exist needs a reason for people to join and that reason is that they negotiate better wages and better healthcare, for example. This is not a speculation on my part but direct observation of Democratic primaries, Manchin's opposition to 15 minimum's wage and local union negotiations.

whatshisface 6y ago
One solution is always opposed to all alternative solutions, but that does not mean that any of the solutions are opposed to solving the problem.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
Some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the light.
tablespoon 6y ago
That's nonsense. The movement for $15 minimum wage is also a movement union rights: https://fightfor15.org/why-we-strike/ https://fightfor15.org/why-we-strike/: > We know striking works. By standing up and going on strike for $15/hr and union rights we won $70 billion in raises for 24 million people across the country — more than 30 percent of the nation’s workforce. It also partners with major unions: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/fight-for-15-teams-up-with-a-major-union-to-turn-out-votes.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/fight-for-15-teams-u...: > The campaign marks just how influential Fight for 15 has become since it formed in 2012. Working in partnership with SEIU and other advocacy groups, its workers have helped drive minimum wage increases in multiple states... Also, your contrarian thinking seems to carry the assumption that the union organizations are somehow independent of their membership and are more interested in the organization's selfish interests than the achievement of its goals, which I think is generally not true. If that was true, I think you'd need a situation where the union was both 1) a monopoly and 2) undemocratic, because union members are basically customers of their union, and those are the conditions an organization needs to exploit its customers.
- antattack 6y ago
  For one example see culinary union and Bernie Sanders primaries in Nevada. [1] [1] https://theintercept.com/2020/02/23/culinary-workers-bucked-their-leadership-by-backing-bernie-sanders-in-nevada-heres-what-they-knew/ https://theintercept.com/2020/02/23/culinary-workers-bucked-... I also know few instances where worker unions negotiated better benefits, wages for existing members while letting employer hire new employees at lower wages as a compromise.
  - tablespoon 6y ago
    Even your own link has this: > That is probably why other union leaders, like the SEIU’s Mary Kay Henry and Association of Flight Attendants-CWA’s Sara Nelson, support Medicare for All. The advocacy group Labor for Single Payer lists 21 unions who support it. But the controversy lingers, kept alive in part by politicians who oppose Medicare For All. It's not always very clear whether one healthcare plan would be better than another, especially when the details haven't actually been worked out for the replacement. It sounds like the Culinary Workers Union has built an impressive healthcare system, and wants to be sure their members don't have their healthcare downgraded under a new plan. Increased wages are much more clear cut. It's not like union employees making $30/hr are going to get their wages reset to the minimum because that was increased to $15/hr. > I also know few instances where worker unions negotiated better benefits, wages for existing members while letting employer hire new employees at lower wages as a compromise. And that's likely because those unions were in weak negotiating positions, not because (like you were originally proposing) they wanted to stand in the way of better worker benefits to make themselves more attractive in comparison. IIRC, those lower-paid new hires are also represented by the same union.
pydry 6y ago
Joe Manchin gets money from finance and real estate, not labor unions. United mine workers seems to be the one (minor) exception, and it's about 1% of what he gets.
dehrmann 6y ago
I hadn't realized this before, but unions have a similar effect as a minimum wage. They both set a floor wage where if you're at or above the floor, you're doing some version of OK, but if you're not, you have a significantly sketchier work situation making significantly less than that floor. They both act to stratify the workforce.
coredog64 6y ago
The ACA’s “Cadillac Tax” was extremely unpopular with unions as it was a direct attack on a benefit they had negotiated instead of wages.
moftz 6y ago
When something like universal healthcare or a $15 min wage goes into law, it's one less thing the union has to negotiate for. The union doesn't have to give up a certain number of sick days to make sure workers are getting $15/hr because its now non-negotiable. The end goal of a union is to not to need to exist, that workers are protected enough that they don't have to engage in collective bargaining.
jariel 6y ago
"This is not a speculation " It's total speculation.

whatshisface 6y ago

One solution is always opposed to all alternative solutions, but that does not mean that any of the solutions are opposed to solving the problem.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago

Some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the light.

tablespoon 6y ago

That's nonsense. The movement for $15 minimum wage is also a movement union rights: https://fightfor15.org/why-we-strike/ https://fightfor15.org/why-we-strike/: > We know striking works. By standing up and going on strike for $15/hr and union rights we won $70 billion in raises for 24 million people across the country — more than 30 percent of the nation’s workforce. It also partners with major unions: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/fight-for-15-teams-up-with-a-major-union-to-turn-out-votes.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/fight-for-15-teams-u...: > The campaign marks just how influential Fight for 15 has become since it formed in 2012. Working in partnership with SEIU and other advocacy groups, its workers have helped drive minimum wage increases in multiple states... Also, your contrarian thinking seems to carry the assumption that the union organizations are somehow independent of their membership and are more interested in the organization's selfish interests than the achievement of its goals, which I think is generally not true. If that was true, I think you'd need a situation where the union was both 1) a monopoly and 2) undemocratic, because union members are basically customers of their union, and those are the conditions an organization needs to exploit its customers.

antattack 6y ago
For one example see culinary union and Bernie Sanders primaries in Nevada. [1] [1] https://theintercept.com/2020/02/23/culinary-workers-bucked-their-leadership-by-backing-bernie-sanders-in-nevada-heres-what-they-knew/ https://theintercept.com/2020/02/23/culinary-workers-bucked-... I also know few instances where worker unions negotiated better benefits, wages for existing members while letting employer hire new employees at lower wages as a compromise.
- tablespoon 6y ago
  Even your own link has this: > That is probably why other union leaders, like the SEIU’s Mary Kay Henry and Association of Flight Attendants-CWA’s Sara Nelson, support Medicare for All. The advocacy group Labor for Single Payer lists 21 unions who support it. But the controversy lingers, kept alive in part by politicians who oppose Medicare For All. It's not always very clear whether one healthcare plan would be better than another, especially when the details haven't actually been worked out for the replacement. It sounds like the Culinary Workers Union has built an impressive healthcare system, and wants to be sure their members don't have their healthcare downgraded under a new plan. Increased wages are much more clear cut. It's not like union employees making $30/hr are going to get their wages reset to the minimum because that was increased to $15/hr. > I also know few instances where worker unions negotiated better benefits, wages for existing members while letting employer hire new employees at lower wages as a compromise. And that's likely because those unions were in weak negotiating positions, not because (like you were originally proposing) they wanted to stand in the way of better worker benefits to make themselves more attractive in comparison. IIRC, those lower-paid new hires are also represented by the same union.

pydry 6y ago

Joe Manchin gets money from finance and real estate, not labor unions. United mine workers seems to be the one (minor) exception, and it's about 1% of what he gets.

dehrmann 6y ago

I hadn't realized this before, but unions have a similar effect as a minimum wage. They both set a floor wage where if you're at or above the floor, you're doing some version of OK, but if you're not, you have a significantly sketchier work situation making significantly less than that floor. They both act to stratify the workforce.

coredog64 6y ago

The ACA’s “Cadillac Tax” was extremely unpopular with unions as it was a direct attack on a benefit they had negotiated instead of wages.

moftz 6y ago

When something like universal healthcare or a $15 min wage goes into law, it's one less thing the union has to negotiate for. The union doesn't have to give up a certain number of sick days to make sure workers are getting $15/hr because its now non-negotiable. The end goal of a union is to not to need to exist, that workers are protected enough that they don't have to engage in collective bargaining.

jariel 6y ago

"This is not a speculation " It's total speculation.