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Why? Why are you worried about disclosing how much milk and eggs you buy? I know this is the age old "I have nothing to hide" argument but I truly am curious w

Why? Why are you worried about disclosing how much milk and eggs you buy? I know this is the age old "I have nothing to hide" argument but I truly am curious why people are so afraid of saying where they're travelling (train tickets) or what they're buying (shops). Don't you think that once that dystopian future comes - when that info might be used against you - we'll have much worse things to worry about?

AlecSchueler 6y ago
I'm not very much worried about my personal data being collected, what worries me is that when it is pooled with the data of many other individuals the entity who controls that pool will be able to do all sorts of analysis and make all sorts of predictions about behaviours on the small and the mass scale, the benefits of which might allow them to engage, with an advantage, in various fields and with various intentions which cannot be predicted or understood by other entities.
slt2021 6y ago
the actual dystopian future is corporates have so much data they have collected for years that they don't know what to do with it. so the most likely scenario is even if data will be collected on you, nobody will be able to use it in any meaningful way
- jerry1979 6y ago
  Why would people not use the data? Would they stop having questions?
llampx 6y ago
Never thought I'd read the "What have you got to hide?" argument on HN of all places. First of all, you're being disingenious by putting up a strawman argument about "how much milk and eggs you buy." It is never about only milk and eggs. Advertising is only a part of it. Once you have an ID required to shop there, you can easily track who was there. You can follow their movements around the shop with cameras once you've identified them at the register. You can see who was with them. You can use this for your own gains, let's say you are a bank employee or police officer who wants to keep tabs on your spouse. Or maybe you are a politician who wants to run a smear campaign on your opponent. Also whether we'll have much worse things to worry about doesn't mean everything else before guillotines on the street can be hand-waved away.
- badestrand 6y ago
  > You can use this for your own gains, let's say you are a bank employee or police officer who wants to keep tabs on your spouse. I think it's obvious that the data would not be public domain but stored strongly secured somewhere with very limited access. There are already very strict data privacy laws in Europe and the trend is clearly towards even more strictness. I, too, don't see any issue as long the as the laws punish misuse of private data.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - teawrecks 6y ago
    "Let's just amass a huge amount of power in a place that only I can get to it, and I'll just promise that I'll never misuse it and that no one will every break in to take it." That plan has literally never worked throughout history.
  - zdragnar 6y ago
    > I think it's obvious that the data would not be public domain but stored strongly secured somewhere with very limited access. That may be an obvious intent, but I do not believe it is obvious the implementation will succeed in achieving those goals. From past experience, it rarely has.
  - milesvp 6y ago
    The laws may punish the misuse of data, but laws change, as do vilified minorities. Never forget that while you may be one of the privileged now, your status will change throughout your life. If you’re lucky you will only become a more privileged individual, if not, you may wish to have a few more anonymous interactions on a regular basis. Protecting privacy isn’t so much about not caring who knows the quantity of eggs you buy a week it’s about acknowledging history and the fickle winds of change. It’s sort of easy to believe that progressive attitudes will continue to prevail and that history tends to lead to increasing enlightenment, but there are often major backslides on issues of social norms and inclusiveness. It’s also about realizing that what you do today might not get you in trouble, but what you did last year might, even though last year no one would have thought twice about what you did.
JasonFruit 6y ago
For example, I'm disclosing my schedule: when I'm likely to be in a given neighborhood, at a certain store, or simply not at home. I'm disclosing my habits: do I buy alcohol frequently? Do I buy certain magazines? None of it is critical information, but I'm not only handing it out, I'm wrapping it up into a neat, searchable bundle for bulk analysis. And more importantly, there will soon be no easy way to opt out; anyone who truly does have something to hide will be obvious by the lengths they must go to in doing so. This is one more step in a dangerous, inhuman direction.
- brabel 6y ago
  > I'm disclosing my habits: do I buy alcohol frequently? Not in Sweden, because only state-run stores can sell alcohol (above 3.5% alcohol to be exact) - it's called Systembolaget and they already know exactly how much you drink! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget
  - jdeibele 6y ago
    In the State of Oregon only state-licensed stores can sell hard liquor. "Hard" seems to be about 20% because you can buy wine and beer under that percentage in grocery stores. The price is the same at all stores and there's a price list online: http://www.olcc.state.or.us/pdfs/monthly_alpha_price_list_c.pdf http://www.olcc.state.or.us/pdfs/monthly_alpha_price_list_c.... A lot of business is done in cash at these stores. They're traditionally a lucrative place to rob because of the cash. There seems to be some people who don't want to be tracked but mostly the cash customers seem to be people who deal more with cash themselves.
  - scbrg 6y ago
    > it's called Systembolaget and they already know exactly how much you drink! Not if you pay with cash they don't.
    - brabel 6y ago
      They are allowed to ask your for your ID to make sure you're old enough (even if you look much older than enough), so they will still know who you are (just half-joking - they don't use that information to store information on you... or do they).
azpotufi 6y ago
This data will invariably be sold to health insurance companies who will use any excuse to make you pay a premium. Bought four bottles of olive oil? You're going to get very fat, better make you pay a premium! Who cares if you actually used it to make soap?
- nivenkos 6y ago
  Good thing Sweden has decent public insurance then... Don't hold back technology and society just because of a few other issues - those other issues can be better resolved directly. In this case, with single-payer public healthcare.
  - hnbroseph 6y ago
    > Don't hold back technology and society conversely, don't presume that what you're advocating for is "advancing" technology and society, either.
  - azpotufi 6y ago
    The country you live in does not matter. If the data you emit is recorded, it will be used against you. Cambdrige Analytica ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica ) might have closed down but there still are a lot of company that do the same things and are still in business.
karaterobot 6y ago
> Don't you think that once that dystopian future comes - when that info might be used against you - we'll have much worse things to worry about? What if this kind of technology helps create that dystopian future? What if this kind of technology makes it worse, or at least harder to fix? More sinister and more protracted, so to speak. We aren't in that future yet, and it won't happen overnight or through one big rollout. We'll get to that future through small, incremental steps that all seem perfectly reasonable at the time.
BoorishBears 6y ago
Why don't you share with the workd your in-person purchases over the last year complete with location and time? It's just eggs and milk after all...
- okprod 6y ago
  I don't agree with any information tracking, but should note that this type of collection, e.g., of shopping data, doesn't exactly mean the information will be leaked or used for nefarious purposes, etc. And, for many, they do share with the world what they're buying/many parts of their daily lives, just not by pushing a commit or updated a webpage; e.g., Twitter, Instagram, Snap.
  - BoorishBears 6y ago
    Do you not see the difference between willingly sharing and implicitly sharing?
akudha 6y ago
Let me turn around and ask you - if you think this is not a problem, why don't you publish all your purchase info online? Along with where you bought them, what time, how etc? While you are at it, also publish your travel info - including mode of travel, time of travel, source, destination... I might be the boring-est person on the planet - lets say nothing about me is of any value to anyone. It is still nobody's business to know even the most mundane aspect of my life. My life is my business, just like your life is your business. Thats all.
- matz1 6y ago
  >why don't you publish all your purchase info online? Along with where you bought them, what time, how etc? While you are at it, also publish your travel info - including mode of travel, time of travel, source, destination... Yes I prefer that for everyone (not just me), including people in government, so that I don't have to worry about hiding the information. Hiding the information has its associated cost. Transparency for everyone to level the playing field. Sure its your business to be private but as times goes and as technology advances it going to be more difficult and expensive.
  - akudha 6y ago
    I prefer that for everyone I don't understand why you should decide for others? If you want to put all of your info online, that is your choice. If I don't want to put my info online, that is my choice.
    - matz1 6y ago
      Because otherwise it will create power imbalance that will put me at disadvantages, other know about me but I don't know about other.
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        Does that strike you as a reason for privacy for no one, or privacy for all? I lean (strongly) to the latter.
vmception 6y ago
Its not the milk and eggs its the condoms and birth control. Its the data on why you suddenly stopped buying alcohol after buying a pregnancy test a month before. Who works at the store? Your former teacher? A prior fling? A neighbor? Does it matter when it can all be leaked with everyones data by a hacker anywhere when the ransom isn't paid by the store?
avidiax 6y ago
Even something as seemingly innocuous as milk and eggs can be a big deal. Suddenly spending more? Maybe you have guests. Maybe you are hiding refugees. Might be innocuous, might be life and death.
- nivenkos 6y ago
  Maybe just don't have a government where that's an issue, rather than holding back the technological development of society. Why use mobile phones or credit cards? Or ID cards? or ISP subscriptions? It could all be tracked! Let's just do everything by landlines and faxes like Germany...
  - hnbroseph 6y ago
    > Maybe just don't have a government where that's an issue oh, good idea. but i think that's quite literally the entire point of people's concerns in the first place.
roody15 6y ago
Yes. Information absolutely can be used against you. Imagine if you perhaps decide to smoke... now the bank (and others). know this behavior and can calculate it into your overall credit score / health care score / behavior score. You could use lots and lots of examples where market forces and banks could influence human behavior through this method. There is freedom and power in using cash.
lliamander 6y ago
The big worry in my mind is whether this tracking would be used to prevent you from buying milk and eggs in the first place.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago
  Easily. Liked a tweet of a "canceled" author? No milk for you!
ska 6y ago
> I know this is the age old "I have nothing to hide" argument If you know that, you already know why it is a specious argument.
Proziam 6y ago
> Why are you worried about disclosing how much milk and eggs you buy? They can see sexual activity, if you're a parent/expecting, a ton of health information, if you're a smoker, your physical location, and more. This isn't about eggs and milk. The data in combination constitutes a greater breach of privacy than the most dedicated stalker could hope to achieve.
DougN7 6y ago
Jews in pre-Nazi Germany didn’t know they had anything to hide. Are you religious? You could one day be targeted. Are you an atheist? You could one day be targeted. What political party do you agree with? You could one day be targeted. You can’t decide to be against this stuff once it’s out there and starts affecting you.
cbozeman 6y ago
> Don't you think that once that dystopian future comes - when that info might be used against you - we'll have much worse things to worry about? Maybe you should read some dystopian fiction. You can see just how much we have to worry about, even in a "paradise".

AlecSchueler 6y ago

I'm not very much worried about my personal data being collected, what worries me is that when it is pooled with the data of many other individuals the entity who controls that pool will be able to do all sorts of analysis and make all sorts of predictions about behaviours on the small and the mass scale, the benefits of which might allow them to engage, with an advantage, in various fields and with various intentions which cannot be predicted or understood by other entities.

slt2021 6y ago

the actual dystopian future is corporates have so much data they have collected for years that they don't know what to do with it. so the most likely scenario is even if data will be collected on you, nobody will be able to use it in any meaningful way

jerry1979 6y ago
Why would people not use the data? Would they stop having questions?

llampx 6y ago

Never thought I'd read the "What have you got to hide?" argument on HN of all places. First of all, you're being disingenious by putting up a strawman argument about "how much milk and eggs you buy." It is never about only milk and eggs. Advertising is only a part of it. Once you have an ID required to shop there, you can easily track who was there. You can follow their movements around the shop with cameras once you've identified them at the register. You can see who was with them. You can use this for your own gains, let's say you are a bank employee or police officer who wants to keep tabs on your spouse. Or maybe you are a politician who wants to run a smear campaign on your opponent. Also whether we'll have much worse things to worry about doesn't mean everything else before guillotines on the street can be hand-waved away.

badestrand 6y ago
> You can use this for your own gains, let's say you are a bank employee or police officer who wants to keep tabs on your spouse. I think it's obvious that the data would not be public domain but stored strongly secured somewhere with very limited access. There are already very strict data privacy laws in Europe and the trend is clearly towards even more strictness. I, too, don't see any issue as long the as the laws punish misuse of private data.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- teawrecks 6y ago
  "Let's just amass a huge amount of power in a place that only I can get to it, and I'll just promise that I'll never misuse it and that no one will every break in to take it." That plan has literally never worked throughout history.
- zdragnar 6y ago
  > I think it's obvious that the data would not be public domain but stored strongly secured somewhere with very limited access. That may be an obvious intent, but I do not believe it is obvious the implementation will succeed in achieving those goals. From past experience, it rarely has.
- milesvp 6y ago
  The laws may punish the misuse of data, but laws change, as do vilified minorities. Never forget that while you may be one of the privileged now, your status will change throughout your life. If you’re lucky you will only become a more privileged individual, if not, you may wish to have a few more anonymous interactions on a regular basis. Protecting privacy isn’t so much about not caring who knows the quantity of eggs you buy a week it’s about acknowledging history and the fickle winds of change. It’s sort of easy to believe that progressive attitudes will continue to prevail and that history tends to lead to increasing enlightenment, but there are often major backslides on issues of social norms and inclusiveness. It’s also about realizing that what you do today might not get you in trouble, but what you did last year might, even though last year no one would have thought twice about what you did.

JasonFruit 6y ago

For example, I'm disclosing my schedule: when I'm likely to be in a given neighborhood, at a certain store, or simply not at home. I'm disclosing my habits: do I buy alcohol frequently? Do I buy certain magazines? None of it is critical information, but I'm not only handing it out, I'm wrapping it up into a neat, searchable bundle for bulk analysis. And more importantly, there will soon be no easy way to opt out; anyone who truly does have something to hide will be obvious by the lengths they must go to in doing so. This is one more step in a dangerous, inhuman direction.

brabel 6y ago
> I'm disclosing my habits: do I buy alcohol frequently? Not in Sweden, because only state-run stores can sell alcohol (above 3.5% alcohol to be exact) - it's called Systembolaget and they already know exactly how much you drink! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget
- jdeibele 6y ago
  In the State of Oregon only state-licensed stores can sell hard liquor. "Hard" seems to be about 20% because you can buy wine and beer under that percentage in grocery stores. The price is the same at all stores and there's a price list online: http://www.olcc.state.or.us/pdfs/monthly_alpha_price_list_c.pdf http://www.olcc.state.or.us/pdfs/monthly_alpha_price_list_c.... A lot of business is done in cash at these stores. They're traditionally a lucrative place to rob because of the cash. There seems to be some people who don't want to be tracked but mostly the cash customers seem to be people who deal more with cash themselves.
- scbrg 6y ago
  > it's called Systembolaget and they already know exactly how much you drink! Not if you pay with cash they don't.
  - brabel 6y ago
    They are allowed to ask your for your ID to make sure you're old enough (even if you look much older than enough), so they will still know who you are (just half-joking - they don't use that information to store information on you... or do they).

azpotufi 6y ago

This data will invariably be sold to health insurance companies who will use any excuse to make you pay a premium. Bought four bottles of olive oil? You're going to get very fat, better make you pay a premium! Who cares if you actually used it to make soap?

nivenkos 6y ago
Good thing Sweden has decent public insurance then... Don't hold back technology and society just because of a few other issues - those other issues can be better resolved directly. In this case, with single-payer public healthcare.
- hnbroseph 6y ago
  > Don't hold back technology and society conversely, don't presume that what you're advocating for is "advancing" technology and society, either.
- azpotufi 6y ago
  The country you live in does not matter. If the data you emit is recorded, it will be used against you. Cambdrige Analytica ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica ) might have closed down but there still are a lot of company that do the same things and are still in business.

karaterobot 6y ago

> Don't you think that once that dystopian future comes - when that info might be used against you - we'll have much worse things to worry about? What if this kind of technology helps create that dystopian future? What if this kind of technology makes it worse, or at least harder to fix? More sinister and more protracted, so to speak. We aren't in that future yet, and it won't happen overnight or through one big rollout. We'll get to that future through small, incremental steps that all seem perfectly reasonable at the time.

BoorishBears 6y ago

Why don't you share with the workd your in-person purchases over the last year complete with location and time? It's just eggs and milk after all...

okprod 6y ago
I don't agree with any information tracking, but should note that this type of collection, e.g., of shopping data, doesn't exactly mean the information will be leaked or used for nefarious purposes, etc. And, for many, they do share with the world what they're buying/many parts of their daily lives, just not by pushing a commit or updated a webpage; e.g., Twitter, Instagram, Snap.
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  Do you not see the difference between willingly sharing and implicitly sharing?

akudha 6y ago

Let me turn around and ask you - if you think this is not a problem, why don't you publish all your purchase info online? Along with where you bought them, what time, how etc? While you are at it, also publish your travel info - including mode of travel, time of travel, source, destination... I might be the boring-est person on the planet - lets say nothing about me is of any value to anyone. It is still nobody's business to know even the most mundane aspect of my life. My life is my business, just like your life is your business. Thats all.

matz1 6y ago
>why don't you publish all your purchase info online? Along with where you bought them, what time, how etc? While you are at it, also publish your travel info - including mode of travel, time of travel, source, destination... Yes I prefer that for everyone (not just me), including people in government, so that I don't have to worry about hiding the information. Hiding the information has its associated cost. Transparency for everyone to level the playing field. Sure its your business to be private but as times goes and as technology advances it going to be more difficult and expensive.
- akudha 6y ago
  I prefer that for everyone I don't understand why you should decide for others? If you want to put all of your info online, that is your choice. If I don't want to put my info online, that is my choice.
  - matz1 6y ago
    Because otherwise it will create power imbalance that will put me at disadvantages, other know about me but I don't know about other.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Does that strike you as a reason for privacy for no one, or privacy for all? I lean (strongly) to the latter.

vmception 6y ago

Its not the milk and eggs its the condoms and birth control. Its the data on why you suddenly stopped buying alcohol after buying a pregnancy test a month before. Who works at the store? Your former teacher? A prior fling? A neighbor? Does it matter when it can all be leaked with everyones data by a hacker anywhere when the ransom isn't paid by the store?

avidiax 6y ago

Even something as seemingly innocuous as milk and eggs can be a big deal. Suddenly spending more? Maybe you have guests. Maybe you are hiding refugees. Might be innocuous, might be life and death.

nivenkos 6y ago
Maybe just don't have a government where that's an issue, rather than holding back the technological development of society. Why use mobile phones or credit cards? Or ID cards? or ISP subscriptions? It could all be tracked! Let's just do everything by landlines and faxes like Germany...
- hnbroseph 6y ago
  > Maybe just don't have a government where that's an issue oh, good idea. but i think that's quite literally the entire point of people's concerns in the first place.

roody15 6y ago

Yes. Information absolutely can be used against you. Imagine if you perhaps decide to smoke... now the bank (and others). know this behavior and can calculate it into your overall credit score / health care score / behavior score. You could use lots and lots of examples where market forces and banks could influence human behavior through this method. There is freedom and power in using cash.

lliamander 6y ago

The big worry in my mind is whether this tracking would be used to prevent you from buying milk and eggs in the first place.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago
Easily. Liked a tweet of a "canceled" author? No milk for you!

ska 6y ago

> I know this is the age old "I have nothing to hide" argument If you know that, you already know why it is a specious argument.

Proziam 6y ago

> Why are you worried about disclosing how much milk and eggs you buy? They can see sexual activity, if you're a parent/expecting, a ton of health information, if you're a smoker, your physical location, and more. This isn't about eggs and milk. The data in combination constitutes a greater breach of privacy than the most dedicated stalker could hope to achieve.

DougN7 6y ago

Jews in pre-Nazi Germany didn’t know they had anything to hide. Are you religious? You could one day be targeted. Are you an atheist? You could one day be targeted. What political party do you agree with? You could one day be targeted. You can’t decide to be against this stuff once it’s out there and starts affecting you.

cbozeman 6y ago

> Don't you think that once that dystopian future comes - when that info might be used against you - we'll have much worse things to worry about? Maybe you should read some dystopian fiction. You can see just how much we have to worry about, even in a "paradise".