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The skepticism I see about this story is really disturbing. From the evidence I have read I am almost certain that there is a genocide happening. But even if I

The skepticism I see about this story is really disturbing. From the evidence I have read I am almost certain that there is a genocide happening. But even if I was only 10% sure it was happening I would demand investigations and proof it wasn’t because the consequences of it being true is so horrible. I also feel positive that it’s being picked up and spun for political reasons. Just like it was previously ignored for political reasons. That’s a reason to be skeptical of the actions we’re being told to take, not of the fact that it’s happening. The important thing is we demand that our leaders (gov and corporate) step up and apply pressure. China has to prove there is not a genocide happening - or we need to take action to stop it.

enko123 6y ago
What kind of pressure? It seems that China has the upper hand in terms of economic leverage.
- kennywinker 6y ago
  I mean I would start with divesting from chinese manufacturing en masse. Move those iPhone factories elsewhere.
La1n 6y ago
>China has to prove there is not a genocide happening How does one prove a negative though?
- kennywinker 6y ago
  If this was math you’d be right, but it wouldn’t take a lot to allow outside observers enough access to the communities in question to confirm or deny the story.
Udik 6y ago
> even if I was only 10% sure it was happening I would demand investigations and proof it wasn’t because the consequences of it being true is so horrible True, I agree with this. > I also feel positive that it’s being picked up and spun for political reasons. [...] That’s a reason to be skeptical of the actions we’re being told to take, not of the fact that it’s happening. I don't get how can you be so sure that it's happening when, as you recognise yourself, there are strong political reasons to push the story. On the run up to the Iraq invasion, people were equally sure that Saddam was hiding WMDs. The US Secretary of State went in front of the UN assembly and showed a sample of a biological agent being developed by Saddam. Don't underestimate the ability of persistent propaganda in making you virtually certain of things that are not true. > China has to prove there is not a genocide happening Ok, what should they do to prove it?
cwwc 6y ago
Why the heck is this so strongly downvoted? This seems like a reasonable point — maybe I’m just missing something.
- aaron695 6y ago
  Why are people down-voting on the principal you are innocent until proven guilty? Lets hash this out, what will you do when/if we find that the 3 letter agencies and other bodies with good translators and good intel are found to be right and there is no genocide being committed? Will you then ignore the demolishing of the Uyghurs artefacts and the large amount of 'education' camps? China has documented very detailed rebuttals to most of the serious (rape, death, sterilisation) claims so far. I think they would allow you check their sources as long as that's it, is this the request? Meanwhile the Ethiopian massacres barely get a mention on HN.
  - kennywinker 6y ago
    Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t mean you don’t get investigated when there is evidence there may have been a crime committed. I’m not asking to check sources - i’m asking for free and open access to uyghur communities for journalists - in a way that would allow them to confirm or deny the claims without putting the people they interview’s lives in danger. I don’t know about Ethiopia, but I do know that almost every purchase i make funds the ccp, not ethiopia - which makes me culpable in a genocide

enko123 6y ago

What kind of pressure? It seems that China has the upper hand in terms of economic leverage.

kennywinker 6y ago
I mean I would start with divesting from chinese manufacturing en masse. Move those iPhone factories elsewhere.

La1n 6y ago

>China has to prove there is not a genocide happening How does one prove a negative though?

kennywinker 6y ago
If this was math you’d be right, but it wouldn’t take a lot to allow outside observers enough access to the communities in question to confirm or deny the story.

Udik 6y ago

> even if I was only 10% sure it was happening I would demand investigations and proof it wasn’t because the consequences of it being true is so horrible True, I agree with this. > I also feel positive that it’s being picked up and spun for political reasons. [...] That’s a reason to be skeptical of the actions we’re being told to take, not of the fact that it’s happening. I don't get how can you be so sure that it's happening when, as you recognise yourself, there are strong political reasons to push the story. On the run up to the Iraq invasion, people were equally sure that Saddam was hiding WMDs. The US Secretary of State went in front of the UN assembly and showed a sample of a biological agent being developed by Saddam. Don't underestimate the ability of persistent propaganda in making you virtually certain of things that are not true. > China has to prove there is not a genocide happening Ok, what should they do to prove it?

cwwc 6y ago

Why the heck is this so strongly downvoted? This seems like a reasonable point — maybe I’m just missing something.

aaron695 6y ago
Why are people down-voting on the principal you are innocent until proven guilty? Lets hash this out, what will you do when/if we find that the 3 letter agencies and other bodies with good translators and good intel are found to be right and there is no genocide being committed? Will you then ignore the demolishing of the Uyghurs artefacts and the large amount of 'education' camps? China has documented very detailed rebuttals to most of the serious (rape, death, sterilisation) claims so far. I think they would allow you check their sources as long as that's it, is this the request? Meanwhile the Ethiopian massacres barely get a mention on HN.
- kennywinker 6y ago
  Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t mean you don’t get investigated when there is evidence there may have been a crime committed. I’m not asking to check sources - i’m asking for free and open access to uyghur communities for journalists - in a way that would allow them to confirm or deny the claims without putting the people they interview’s lives in danger. I don’t know about Ethiopia, but I do know that almost every purchase i make funds the ccp, not ethiopia - which makes me culpable in a genocide