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> There is growing awareness that this service should not be run by private companies/banks. I don't agree. I'm a Swede too (as I assume you are), and I have b

> There is growing awareness that this service should not be run by private companies/banks. I don't agree. I'm a Swede too (as I assume you are), and I have basically never heard anyone complain of BankID being owned by the banks. I am really happy that our government does not own BankID, since they suck badly at developing software.

tpmx 6y ago
My understanding: After the recent money laundering revelations the banks have become relatively strict in accepting/keeping certain customers. I think that most of all the banks are afraid of being blacklisted/sanctioned by the US. This leads to friction and situations where some people are essentially excluded from large parts of society. The banks also don't seem to be all that interested in interacting with their invidual customers in the flesh. I think the natural conclusion of this is that the issuing of electronic IDs becomes a government responsibility, decoupled from banking.
- blfr 6y ago
  The banks also don't seem to be all that interested in interacting with their invidual customers in the flesh. The feeling's mutual! I have been using the same bank for over 15 years and only visited once and by accident.
- SahAssar 6y ago
  Wasn't all of those scandals tied to foreign branches of the banks and the strictness has mostly only been applied there? I might be wrong, but I haven't heard of swedish residents being denied banking.
  - tpmx 6y ago
    - 6-9 months ago I started reading online of mostly Swedbank customers who had suddenly been asked to move their monthly salaries to this bank, or they'd lose their accounts. These people were doing stock trading only via Swedbank. - 18 months ago I tried to facilitate creating a corporate bank account managed by a foreign CEO from a non-EU and very first-world country in order to be able to create a Swedish company (AB) with the goal of hiring software people here in Sweden. Tried two banks (SEB and Handelsbanken) before giving up and going another route. My impression is that Swedish banks have tightened up things quite a lot in the past few years.
    - SahAssar 6y ago
      Yeah, that first example does sound unexpected based on my experience. I might have to deal with something like the second example in the soon-ish future, mind telling me the route you took?
      - tpmx 6y ago
        You kinda need to have an EU-based CEO. Swedish-based is (marginally) easier. There might be tricks via Cyprus or so, but that will only let you create the AB - you still need a Swedish corporate bank account to pay your employees the proper way.
dsco 6y ago
Try starting a Blockchain company and they will violently fight you until they’ve (the big banks) have shut down your access.
- SahAssar 6y ago
  I'm guessing you don't just mean blockchain, but rather virtual, unregulated currencies. If so I'm glad that's the case. If you actually mean a company using blockchain in other ways: do you have any examples?
- gerikson 6y ago
  As a Swede, I'm glad this is the case.
  - cinntaile 6y ago
    Why is preventing people from starting a legitimate business a good thing?
  - dsco 6y ago
    So give me the bull case where there’s a regulatory gray zone and institutions who really don’t understand technology get to decide how it should be operated. I’ve been in contact with Finansinspektionen on multiple occasions and there’s a pretty low understanding of technology in general. Another detrimental aspect is that there’s very little competition to the regular banking system because of this. So since HN is a place primarily for technologists who like to push things forward, maybe you have a stronger argument than just saying that you’re a Swede?
- cambaceres 6y ago
  Have you tried? In that case, what happend?
cycomanic 6y ago
Well the Swedish banks are pretty much the worst I've encountered anywhere, while the government is comparatively efficient (tax returns are very easy, apply for parental leave etc.). So yes please don't let the banks control it.
- tpmx 6y ago
  In their defense: They used to be pretty good, before international money laundering became a giant thing. After recent regulations there are very few reasons for why they would want to accept foreign customers. Just too much risk. I agree that something needs to be done. They have been innovative in the past: 1996/1997: Mass adoption of two-factor hardware devices providing secure authentication for online banking. 2003: Leveraging the two-factor hardware devices to create BankID.
Entalpi 6y ago
Honestly banks are pretty regulated and some insights are already in place (as they shiuld be). This does not exclude the need for more regulation and insight mind
dalbasal 6y ago
"Ownership" is can be kind of abstract, in this context. A service like this needs to be infrastructure, one way or another. Secure, reasonably neutral, trusted... You don't want it serving as a retaining wall for a monopoly.
gerikson 6y ago
Googling “ bankid privatägd kritik” gave me one hit - to Flashback. Hardly mainstream...
greensea 6y ago
It is an issue that digital identification in Sweden is run by a single private company. The drawbacks are not clearly seen from a consumer standpoint, but they do charge service providers for each login, and can set their prices freely since it's a monopoly. They also have rules against being logged in for too long, and against identity transfer (directly or indirectly using BankID to authenticate for a different login method) [1], since that would result in fewer BankID logins and less revenue for them. One result of the latter restriction is that any letters containing authentication codes need to be sent by physical mail, since all digital mailboxes such as Kivra and the government-run "Min myndighetspost" support login by BankID. The University Admissions service (antagning.se) were forced to stop sending codes through digital mailboxes due to this [2]. [1]: https://twitter.com/antagningse/status/1178957770978140160 https://twitter.com/antagningse/status/1178957770978140160 [2]: https://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/1.643894/skatteverket-sunet-e-id https://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/1.643894/skatteverket-s...
- cambaceres 6y ago
  That’s some good arguments, I change my mind.
- rattray 6y ago
  Those sound like good rules? Are you sure they can set the prices "freely"? Many regulated monopolies like this are restricted in their pricing. (disclaimer, not a swede)

tpmx 6y ago

My understanding: After the recent money laundering revelations the banks have become relatively strict in accepting/keeping certain customers. I think that most of all the banks are afraid of being blacklisted/sanctioned by the US. This leads to friction and situations where some people are essentially excluded from large parts of society. The banks also don't seem to be all that interested in interacting with their invidual customers in the flesh. I think the natural conclusion of this is that the issuing of electronic IDs becomes a government responsibility, decoupled from banking.

blfr 6y ago
The banks also don't seem to be all that interested in interacting with their invidual customers in the flesh. The feeling's mutual! I have been using the same bank for over 15 years and only visited once and by accident.
SahAssar 6y ago
Wasn't all of those scandals tied to foreign branches of the banks and the strictness has mostly only been applied there? I might be wrong, but I haven't heard of swedish residents being denied banking.
- tpmx 6y ago
  - 6-9 months ago I started reading online of mostly Swedbank customers who had suddenly been asked to move their monthly salaries to this bank, or they'd lose their accounts. These people were doing stock trading only via Swedbank. - 18 months ago I tried to facilitate creating a corporate bank account managed by a foreign CEO from a non-EU and very first-world country in order to be able to create a Swedish company (AB) with the goal of hiring software people here in Sweden. Tried two banks (SEB and Handelsbanken) before giving up and going another route. My impression is that Swedish banks have tightened up things quite a lot in the past few years.
  - SahAssar 6y ago
    Yeah, that first example does sound unexpected based on my experience. I might have to deal with something like the second example in the soon-ish future, mind telling me the route you took?
    - tpmx 6y ago
      You kinda need to have an EU-based CEO. Swedish-based is (marginally) easier. There might be tricks via Cyprus or so, but that will only let you create the AB - you still need a Swedish corporate bank account to pay your employees the proper way.

dsco 6y ago

Try starting a Blockchain company and they will violently fight you until they’ve (the big banks) have shut down your access.

SahAssar 6y ago
I'm guessing you don't just mean blockchain, but rather virtual, unregulated currencies. If so I'm glad that's the case. If you actually mean a company using blockchain in other ways: do you have any examples?
gerikson 6y ago
As a Swede, I'm glad this is the case.
- cinntaile 6y ago
  Why is preventing people from starting a legitimate business a good thing?
- dsco 6y ago
  So give me the bull case where there’s a regulatory gray zone and institutions who really don’t understand technology get to decide how it should be operated. I’ve been in contact with Finansinspektionen on multiple occasions and there’s a pretty low understanding of technology in general. Another detrimental aspect is that there’s very little competition to the regular banking system because of this. So since HN is a place primarily for technologists who like to push things forward, maybe you have a stronger argument than just saying that you’re a Swede?
cambaceres 6y ago
Have you tried? In that case, what happend?

cycomanic 6y ago

Well the Swedish banks are pretty much the worst I've encountered anywhere, while the government is comparatively efficient (tax returns are very easy, apply for parental leave etc.). So yes please don't let the banks control it.

tpmx 6y ago
In their defense: They used to be pretty good, before international money laundering became a giant thing. After recent regulations there are very few reasons for why they would want to accept foreign customers. Just too much risk. I agree that something needs to be done. They have been innovative in the past: 1996/1997: Mass adoption of two-factor hardware devices providing secure authentication for online banking. 2003: Leveraging the two-factor hardware devices to create BankID.

Entalpi 6y ago

Honestly banks are pretty regulated and some insights are already in place (as they shiuld be). This does not exclude the need for more regulation and insight mind

dalbasal 6y ago

"Ownership" is can be kind of abstract, in this context. A service like this needs to be infrastructure, one way or another. Secure, reasonably neutral, trusted... You don't want it serving as a retaining wall for a monopoly.

gerikson 6y ago

Googling “ bankid privatägd kritik” gave me one hit - to Flashback. Hardly mainstream...

greensea 6y ago

It is an issue that digital identification in Sweden is run by a single private company. The drawbacks are not clearly seen from a consumer standpoint, but they do charge service providers for each login, and can set their prices freely since it's a monopoly. They also have rules against being logged in for too long, and against identity transfer (directly or indirectly using BankID to authenticate for a different login method) [1], since that would result in fewer BankID logins and less revenue for them. One result of the latter restriction is that any letters containing authentication codes need to be sent by physical mail, since all digital mailboxes such as Kivra and the government-run "Min myndighetspost" support login by BankID. The University Admissions service (antagning.se) were forced to stop sending codes through digital mailboxes due to this [2]. [1]: https://twitter.com/antagningse/status/1178957770978140160 https://twitter.com/antagningse/status/1178957770978140160 [2]: https://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/1.643894/skatteverket-sunet-e-id https://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/1.643894/skatteverket-s...

cambaceres 6y ago
That’s some good arguments, I change my mind.
rattray 6y ago
Those sound like good rules? Are you sure they can set the prices "freely"? Many regulated monopolies like this are restricted in their pricing. (disclaimer, not a swede)