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In New Zealand, there are old swamplands filled with swamp Kauri. Around a year ago, construction workers found a 16 m (52 ft) long log which had been buried un

In New Zealand, there are old swamplands filled with swamp Kauri. Around a year ago, construction workers found a 16 m (52 ft) long log which had been buried underground for 40,000 years [1] They used to dig up $200 million worth of timber a year, mostly exported to China, until the government cracked down on exports. It's illegal to export unfinished native timber, so exporters exploited a loophole by cutting the trunks into "tabletops", or adding basic carvings and labelling them as "totem poles", and then shipping the logs to China for further processing. [1] https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/giant-ngawha-swamp-kauri-log-dated-to-40500-years-old/PM2BHREF4JCBBRN7B6GSJN4CNA/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/giant-ngawha-swamp-kauri-log-d...

tomrod 6y ago
The limits of regulation. There is no way to plug all loopholes. That said, the added labor ensures a more finished product is exported. Was that the intent, or was the intent to force the wood to stay in NZ?
- minitoar 6y ago
  Certainly the former, but clearly not in the spirit of it. However as long as the tax man got his share maybe that’s all that matters. Presumably the more finished product is taxed higher.
  - TheIronYuppie 6y ago
    Both the letter of the law and the spirit seem to point to just using the regulation around finished furniture as a way to limit over harvesting. Why do you see it differently?
  - lostlogin 6y ago
    Not here in NZ. The wetlands were being plundered and trashed with all the raw logs shipped to China. The tax wasn’t the issue, it was getting paid.
- weregiraffe 6y ago
  >The limits of regulation. There is no way to plug all loopholes. Sure there is. Just ban export of wood and wooden items.
  - tomrod 6y ago
    Then you find wood called "cellulose products" and the cycle starts again. It's impossible to limit creativity, and also why would a government want to pursue a ban as it impacts negatively woodworkers?
    - weregiraffe 6y ago
      >Then you find wood called "cellulose products" and the cycle starts again. Inventing new words doesn't magically absolve you of crimes, you know.
      - tomrod 6y ago
        Actually it does. Consider "bribe" versus "campaign donor." "Execution" versus "murder". Many cases exist. But that is beside the point. Laws have to be specific, and that is the issue. If you can perform a minimal treatment to the object under the law, then it can be transmuted under the law and the spirit of the regulation is sidestepped.
        shuntress 6y ago
        Laws cannot be specific for this exact reason. Reason, judgement, and consensus must be part of the process. To ban the export of unprocessed domestic wood, is it preferable to pre-define and include every possible "process" or is it better to have judges who asses whether any given would-be export is "processed"? Also, lets skip the argument of regulatory capture/neglect by just agreeing that government transparency/accessibility and voter enfranchisement are critically important to maintaining any reasonable consensus-based system.
        6y ago
- aantix 6y ago
  Lawmakers are slow and playing defense all of the time. You're always a step behind when you have to react to moves.
- SavantIdiot 6y ago
  Yes, but still better than no regulations. It's an arms race.
  - tomrod 6y ago
    Why is that better, specific to this instance?
    - jayd16 6y ago
      I would venture to guess the regulation, weak as it was, still slowed the exports.
      - tomrod 6y ago
        I would imagine so, if only a minor amount. Seems like it increased the price I would gather, unless the international market for unique wood doesn't behave as I'm speculating :)
      - BurningFrog 6y ago
        Right, but I'd argue this export was beneficial, both to NZ and China.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  There is also an environmental aspect. Limits on the export of unfinished wood/logs ensures that the wood isn't being sold to become firewood. Firewood is a thing. Something like 8-10% of UK electricity (2017) came from firewood harvested in the US. https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-06-20/uk-s-move-away-coal-means-they-re-burning-wood-us https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-06-20/uk-s-move-away-coal-m...
  - lostlogin 6y ago
    The wood dug out of swamps in NZ is far too valuable to be firewood, but wrecking wetland does have a massive negative impact. It’s worth googling images of swamp kauri if woodworking is your thing, the logs are truely massive.
    - brabel 6y ago
      I did just that... and found this interesting article about swamp kauri and how they helped understand what happened last time the Earth's magnetic poles reversed, 42,000 years ago: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/ancient-northland-swamp-kauri-solves-42000-year-old-mystery/R3KTH5HHDBEWICCI3B63FXM2OM/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/ancient-no...
      - njarboe 6y ago
        The Earth's magnetic poles last permanently reversed about 780,000 years ago. The magnetic event that happened ~41,000-42,000 years ago is called the Laschamps excursion. An excursion is when the magnetic field gets very weak, becomes non-dipolar, but then returns to the original polarity that the field was before the excursion. Occasionally durning these excursions the field flips directions and becomes stable in the opposite direction. That did not happen for the Laschamps. Many of these excursions have occurred since the last reversal of the field. The article you linked to is a bit woo-woo, especially with all the Douglas Adam's stuff and the number 42. The article did not link to the scientific paper, which is an interesting read. It seems to be open access, so check it out[1]. [1]https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6531/811 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6531/811
- CPLX 6y ago
  The intent of finished goods laws like this almost invariably is to protect domestic jobs. Many other countries have variations on these type of laws. The concern is that a raw material export based economy is bad for the people who live in the country because most of the value is extracted from the country and only the most unskilled jobs are left. This type of resource extraction was a hallmark of the colonial era, which is one reason governments are very wary of it.
lostlogin 6y ago
For those that aren’t aware, there was also a scandal when the main fuel line for Auckland airport was ruptured by a digger looking for swamp kauri. To make it all more complicated, the company that did it had a director married to a high ranking MP. It all got murky fast. https://thestandard.org.nz/the-strange-case-of-oravida-and-the-rupturing-of-the-ruakaka-jet-fuel-line/amp/ https://thestandard.org.nz/the-strange-case-of-oravida-and-t...
- winterlight_nz 6y ago
  That high ranking MP is currently the leader of the opposition National party.
itronitron 6y ago
So the job market in NZ for chainsaw artists is picking up?

tomrod 6y ago

The limits of regulation. There is no way to plug all loopholes. That said, the added labor ensures a more finished product is exported. Was that the intent, or was the intent to force the wood to stay in NZ?

minitoar 6y ago
Certainly the former, but clearly not in the spirit of it. However as long as the tax man got his share maybe that’s all that matters. Presumably the more finished product is taxed higher.
- TheIronYuppie 6y ago
  Both the letter of the law and the spirit seem to point to just using the regulation around finished furniture as a way to limit over harvesting. Why do you see it differently?
- lostlogin 6y ago
  Not here in NZ. The wetlands were being plundered and trashed with all the raw logs shipped to China. The tax wasn’t the issue, it was getting paid.
weregiraffe 6y ago
>The limits of regulation. There is no way to plug all loopholes. Sure there is. Just ban export of wood and wooden items.
- tomrod 6y ago
  Then you find wood called "cellulose products" and the cycle starts again. It's impossible to limit creativity, and also why would a government want to pursue a ban as it impacts negatively woodworkers?
  - weregiraffe 6y ago
    >Then you find wood called "cellulose products" and the cycle starts again. Inventing new words doesn't magically absolve you of crimes, you know.
    - tomrod 6y ago
      Actually it does. Consider "bribe" versus "campaign donor." "Execution" versus "murder". Many cases exist. But that is beside the point. Laws have to be specific, and that is the issue. If you can perform a minimal treatment to the object under the law, then it can be transmuted under the law and the spirit of the regulation is sidestepped.
      - shuntress 6y ago
        Laws cannot be specific for this exact reason. Reason, judgement, and consensus must be part of the process. To ban the export of unprocessed domestic wood, is it preferable to pre-define and include every possible "process" or is it better to have judges who asses whether any given would-be export is "processed"? Also, lets skip the argument of regulatory capture/neglect by just agreeing that government transparency/accessibility and voter enfranchisement are critically important to maintaining any reasonable consensus-based system.
        6y ago
aantix 6y ago
Lawmakers are slow and playing defense all of the time. You're always a step behind when you have to react to moves.
SavantIdiot 6y ago
Yes, but still better than no regulations. It's an arms race.
- tomrod 6y ago
  Why is that better, specific to this instance?
  - jayd16 6y ago
    I would venture to guess the regulation, weak as it was, still slowed the exports.
    - tomrod 6y ago
      I would imagine so, if only a minor amount. Seems like it increased the price I would gather, unless the international market for unique wood doesn't behave as I'm speculating :)
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      Right, but I'd argue this export was beneficial, both to NZ and China.
sandworm101 6y ago
There is also an environmental aspect. Limits on the export of unfinished wood/logs ensures that the wood isn't being sold to become firewood. Firewood is a thing. Something like 8-10% of UK electricity (2017) came from firewood harvested in the US. https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-06-20/uk-s-move-away-coal-means-they-re-burning-wood-us https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-06-20/uk-s-move-away-coal-m...
- lostlogin 6y ago
  The wood dug out of swamps in NZ is far too valuable to be firewood, but wrecking wetland does have a massive negative impact. It’s worth googling images of swamp kauri if woodworking is your thing, the logs are truely massive.
  - brabel 6y ago
    I did just that... and found this interesting article about swamp kauri and how they helped understand what happened last time the Earth's magnetic poles reversed, 42,000 years ago: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/ancient-northland-swamp-kauri-solves-42000-year-old-mystery/R3KTH5HHDBEWICCI3B63FXM2OM/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/ancient-no...
    - njarboe 6y ago
      The Earth's magnetic poles last permanently reversed about 780,000 years ago. The magnetic event that happened ~41,000-42,000 years ago is called the Laschamps excursion. An excursion is when the magnetic field gets very weak, becomes non-dipolar, but then returns to the original polarity that the field was before the excursion. Occasionally durning these excursions the field flips directions and becomes stable in the opposite direction. That did not happen for the Laschamps. Many of these excursions have occurred since the last reversal of the field. The article you linked to is a bit woo-woo, especially with all the Douglas Adam's stuff and the number 42. The article did not link to the scientific paper, which is an interesting read. It seems to be open access, so check it out[1]. [1]https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6531/811 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6531/811
CPLX 6y ago
The intent of finished goods laws like this almost invariably is to protect domestic jobs. Many other countries have variations on these type of laws. The concern is that a raw material export based economy is bad for the people who live in the country because most of the value is extracted from the country and only the most unskilled jobs are left. This type of resource extraction was a hallmark of the colonial era, which is one reason governments are very wary of it.

lostlogin 6y ago

For those that aren’t aware, there was also a scandal when the main fuel line for Auckland airport was ruptured by a digger looking for swamp kauri. To make it all more complicated, the company that did it had a director married to a high ranking MP. It all got murky fast. https://thestandard.org.nz/the-strange-case-of-oravida-and-the-rupturing-of-the-ruakaka-jet-fuel-line/amp/ https://thestandard.org.nz/the-strange-case-of-oravida-and-t...

winterlight_nz 6y ago
That high ranking MP is currently the leader of the opposition National party.

itronitron 6y ago

So the job market in NZ for chainsaw artists is picking up?