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Efficiency is the reason we can have this conversation instead of standing out in a field, manually trying to coax a living out of the unforgiving soil every da

by m12k 6y ago

Efficiency is the reason we can have this conversation instead of standing out in a field, manually trying to coax a living out of the unforgiving soil every day. Efficiency isn't the goal, but it's one of the best tools we have for improving what a human life can be - like for example giving us enough leisure time to be able to read, have hobbies, do art or spend more time with loved ones.

rgrieselhuber 6y ago
There's nothing wrong with efficiency and it provides a lot of benefits, as you say. But the efficiency argument is also used to knock out local businesses in favor of big box stores and so on. Everybody likes efficiency but we should be wary of using that as the only way to measure outcomes.
- m12k 6y ago
  I agree that a singular focus on efficiency without regard for unintended side effects or negative externalities is crazy too. "Sustainability" should be right up there with efficiency as a main tool - doing something efficiently in an unsustainable way (societally, economically or ecologically) will by definition not be efficient in the long term anyway - but our society is often organized in a way where those who benefit from short term profits are not the same as those who must bear the long term costs, so they don't balance out like ideally they should. So the effort should be put into aligning those incentives, make it unprofitable to chase short-term profits in ways that harm society - not to fight efficiency as a concept.
bopbeepboop 6y ago
> for example giving us enough leisure time to be able to read, have hobbies, do art or spend more time with loved ones Do you have a citation we do more of that now than in agrarian societies? My impression was the opposite: We have more creature comforts, and exert less physical activity, but actually do all of those things less as well for “efficiency” reasons. A rough analysis suggests that chimps have as much or more leisure time than I do and spend more time with their families than I do, on a daily basis.
eertami 6y ago
>like for example giving us enough leisure time to be able to read, have hobbies, do art or spend more time with loved ones. You say that like it is a universally accepted truth, yet the American worker allegedly takes less vacation time than a medieval peasant[0]. Going even further back, prior to agriculture we likely had even more "free" time[1]. Efficiency is a goal is nice, but the modern work day does not strive for efficiency. [0]: https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacation-medieval-peasant-2016-11?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacatio... [1]: https://www.earth.com/news/farmers-less-free-time-hunter-gatherers/ https://www.earth.com/news/farmers-less-free-time-hunter-gat...
- m12k 6y ago
  Sure, the American ass-in-seat mentally is not efficient. The American for-profit healthcare system is not efficient. And the American way of leaving its poorer citizens to fend for themselves instead of investing in them is not efficient. That's not an indictment of America's belief in efficiency, that's an indictment of its blind belief in the market as the best source of all solutions.

by m12k 6y ago

rgrieselhuber 6y ago

There's nothing wrong with efficiency and it provides a lot of benefits, as you say. But the efficiency argument is also used to knock out local businesses in favor of big box stores and so on. Everybody likes efficiency but we should be wary of using that as the only way to measure outcomes.

m12k 6y ago
I agree that a singular focus on efficiency without regard for unintended side effects or negative externalities is crazy too. "Sustainability" should be right up there with efficiency as a main tool - doing something efficiently in an unsustainable way (societally, economically or ecologically) will by definition not be efficient in the long term anyway - but our society is often organized in a way where those who benefit from short term profits are not the same as those who must bear the long term costs, so they don't balance out like ideally they should. So the effort should be put into aligning those incentives, make it unprofitable to chase short-term profits in ways that harm society - not to fight efficiency as a concept.

bopbeepboop 6y ago

> for example giving us enough leisure time to be able to read, have hobbies, do art or spend more time with loved ones Do you have a citation we do more of that now than in agrarian societies? My impression was the opposite: We have more creature comforts, and exert less physical activity, but actually do all of those things less as well for “efficiency” reasons. A rough analysis suggests that chimps have as much or more leisure time than I do and spend more time with their families than I do, on a daily basis.

eertami 6y ago

>like for example giving us enough leisure time to be able to read, have hobbies, do art or spend more time with loved ones. You say that like it is a universally accepted truth, yet the American worker allegedly takes less vacation time than a medieval peasant[0]. Going even further back, prior to agriculture we likely had even more "free" time[1]. Efficiency is a goal is nice, but the modern work day does not strive for efficiency. [0]: https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacation-medieval-peasant-2016-11?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacatio... [1]: https://www.earth.com/news/farmers-less-free-time-hunter-gatherers/ https://www.earth.com/news/farmers-less-free-time-hunter-gat...

m12k 6y ago
Sure, the American ass-in-seat mentally is not efficient. The American for-profit healthcare system is not efficient. And the American way of leaving its poorer citizens to fend for themselves instead of investing in them is not efficient. That's not an indictment of America's belief in efficiency, that's an indictment of its blind belief in the market as the best source of all solutions.