4 ms·

I know it's a lot of setup, but how exactly is it horrible? I can imagine writing something in MS Word or Google Docs being horrible as the document grows. At

by sgt 6y ago

I know it's a lot of setup, but how exactly is it horrible? I can imagine writing something in MS Word or Google Docs being horrible as the document grows. At least with LaTeX you can use a text editor, even vim if you want.

baby 6y ago
It’s just extremely complicated and the ecosystem has badly aged (yeah you need makefile and docker if you want to do it right, and nobody uses docker)
- nanna 6y ago
  > It’s just extremely complicated Depends on what you're trying to do. To publish an article or book - no it's not very complicated. There's a vast package ecosystem and knowing where to turn can be daunting, but there is great community documentation out there such as by Overleaf[1] and the community on stack exchange is lively and lovely. Building your own functionality can be complicated, however partly this comes down to LaTeX being a very different programming paradigm to the conventional C-like languages. > the ecosystem has badly aged Care to substantiate? > you need makefile and docker if you want to do it right, and nobody uses docker Simply untrue. If you have a setup that warrants more than a conventional setup there are native-LaTeX build tools like arara which are simple to use.[2] [1] https://www.overleaf.com/learn/latex/Main_Page https://www.overleaf.com/learn/latex/Main_Page [2] https://gitlab.com/jm4rc05/arara https://gitlab.com/jm4rc05/arara
  - baby 6y ago
    I forgot Overleaf, they are single handedly making latex user friendly
    - nanna 6y ago
      I'd say 'single handedly' is a bit of an overstatement, but Overleaf are definitely doing a great job.
- mhd 6y ago
  First time I heard docker as a prerequisite to TeX usage. Cross-platform comprehensive LaTeX distributions have been there since at least the mid-90s. And the ecosystem actually is quite good these days. You always had pretty good editor support in the "nerdy" ones, but these days there are also friendlier frontends like Lyx, Texpad, Texstudio or the collaborative web-based Overleaf. The backend isn't that bad, either. The days of specialized output and font formats are gone, using any system TTF/OTF and producing PDF is easy enough with pdfTeX, luaTeX adds lua-based scripting to that and ConTeXt does all that plus better access to layout primitives and typographical features. And I'm sure the Rust Rewrite Liberation Front is active in TeX, too. The worst thing in the TeX world, ironically, is documentation. There's a lot of stuff out there that didn't keep up with all the new features and possibilities.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    > using any system TTF/OTF As if any typeface could possibly be superior to Computer Modern Serif.
    - mhd 6y ago
      Knuth's own Concrete Roman stares awkwardly…
  - baby 6y ago
    It’s not a prerequisite, the proof is that no one seems to use docker to build latex. That’s what I meant: it’s an ugly mess and you’ll spend hours trying to compile things like you’re dealing with autotools and a C codebase, and people don’t even use docker. I wouldn’t say the ecosystem is good. Every time you want to add a new extension you’ll be in a world of pain. I prefer customizing emacs at this point.
- anthk 6y ago
  > (yeah you need makefile and docker if you want to do it right, and nobody uses docker) what? Just make and the texlive setup. I you want something bullshit-free, install texlive on slackware, it brings the full setup.
tasogare 6y ago
Everything needs to be Googled, all the time. Want to include an image? Google it. Install a package. Google more for arguments. Want to center the image? Google. Want to insert a table? Google. Oh a line in the table is too long, how to wrap it? Google. Decide between 3-4 options all having different shortcomings. Install new package. Which requires different arguments than the other command. Google. Insert an accented letter? Google. Insert a Chinese character? Google, package, google. Everything is a pain to do, and I just described the happy path. If you try to do something a little tricky you easily run into incompatible packages wreaking with each other. Word has its shortcomings for sure, but for writing a short paper it’s a magnitude or two more easier and faster (except when a coworker uploaded it in Google Docs with deleted the styles...)
- anthk 6y ago
  >Google. Insert an accented letter? Google. No. Just use unicode.
  - nanna 6y ago
    Well, use LuaLaTeX or XeLaTeX as your engine, and then just type in unicode. Also search for errors about missing glyphs in your font.
  - tasogare 6y ago
    Latex doesn’t support unicode out of the box. And when it does, there are still issue with fonts.
    - anthk 6y ago
      Spaniard user here, with some experience with LaTeX and Spanish with utf8 settings. It supports it fine.
  - DemocracyFTW 6y ago
    To be fair I've used lots and lots of Unicode (here: "characters not contained in US-ASCII") in XeLaTeX but have also had the need for some symbolic / numeric codepoints. I can tell you the syntax to do so is horrible. And yes I'd have to google that syntax before I could do it again.
singingfish 6y ago
Once you've got your document working the way you want it it's lovely. It's the journey that's bumpy. This is the same complaint PhD students have been making for at least thirty years.

by sgt 6y ago

baby 6y ago

It’s just extremely complicated and the ecosystem has badly aged (yeah you need makefile and docker if you want to do it right, and nobody uses docker)

nanna 6y ago
> It’s just extremely complicated Depends on what you're trying to do. To publish an article or book - no it's not very complicated. There's a vast package ecosystem and knowing where to turn can be daunting, but there is great community documentation out there such as by Overleaf[1] and the community on stack exchange is lively and lovely. Building your own functionality can be complicated, however partly this comes down to LaTeX being a very different programming paradigm to the conventional C-like languages. > the ecosystem has badly aged Care to substantiate? > you need makefile and docker if you want to do it right, and nobody uses docker Simply untrue. If you have a setup that warrants more than a conventional setup there are native-LaTeX build tools like arara which are simple to use.[2] [1] https://www.overleaf.com/learn/latex/Main_Page https://www.overleaf.com/learn/latex/Main_Page [2] https://gitlab.com/jm4rc05/arara https://gitlab.com/jm4rc05/arara
- baby 6y ago
  I forgot Overleaf, they are single handedly making latex user friendly
  - nanna 6y ago
    I'd say 'single handedly' is a bit of an overstatement, but Overleaf are definitely doing a great job.
mhd 6y ago
First time I heard docker as a prerequisite to TeX usage. Cross-platform comprehensive LaTeX distributions have been there since at least the mid-90s. And the ecosystem actually is quite good these days. You always had pretty good editor support in the "nerdy" ones, but these days there are also friendlier frontends like Lyx, Texpad, Texstudio or the collaborative web-based Overleaf. The backend isn't that bad, either. The days of specialized output and font formats are gone, using any system TTF/OTF and producing PDF is easy enough with pdfTeX, luaTeX adds lua-based scripting to that and ConTeXt does all that plus better access to layout primitives and typographical features. And I'm sure the Rust Rewrite Liberation Front is active in TeX, too. The worst thing in the TeX world, ironically, is documentation. There's a lot of stuff out there that didn't keep up with all the new features and possibilities.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > using any system TTF/OTF As if any typeface could possibly be superior to Computer Modern Serif.
  - mhd 6y ago
    Knuth's own Concrete Roman stares awkwardly…
- baby 6y ago
  It’s not a prerequisite, the proof is that no one seems to use docker to build latex. That’s what I meant: it’s an ugly mess and you’ll spend hours trying to compile things like you’re dealing with autotools and a C codebase, and people don’t even use docker. I wouldn’t say the ecosystem is good. Every time you want to add a new extension you’ll be in a world of pain. I prefer customizing emacs at this point.
anthk 6y ago
> (yeah you need makefile and docker if you want to do it right, and nobody uses docker) what? Just make and the texlive setup. I you want something bullshit-free, install texlive on slackware, it brings the full setup.

tasogare 6y ago

Everything needs to be Googled, all the time. Want to include an image? Google it. Install a package. Google more for arguments. Want to center the image? Google. Want to insert a table? Google. Oh a line in the table is too long, how to wrap it? Google. Decide between 3-4 options all having different shortcomings. Install new package. Which requires different arguments than the other command. Google. Insert an accented letter? Google. Insert a Chinese character? Google, package, google. Everything is a pain to do, and I just described the happy path. If you try to do something a little tricky you easily run into incompatible packages wreaking with each other. Word has its shortcomings for sure, but for writing a short paper it’s a magnitude or two more easier and faster (except when a coworker uploaded it in Google Docs with deleted the styles...)

anthk 6y ago
>Google. Insert an accented letter? Google. No. Just use unicode.
- nanna 6y ago
  Well, use LuaLaTeX or XeLaTeX as your engine, and then just type in unicode. Also search for errors about missing glyphs in your font.
- tasogare 6y ago
  Latex doesn’t support unicode out of the box. And when it does, there are still issue with fonts.
  - anthk 6y ago
    Spaniard user here, with some experience with LaTeX and Spanish with utf8 settings. It supports it fine.
- DemocracyFTW 6y ago
  To be fair I've used lots and lots of Unicode (here: "characters not contained in US-ASCII") in XeLaTeX but have also had the need for some symbolic / numeric codepoints. I can tell you the syntax to do so is horrible. And yes I'd have to google that syntax before I could do it again.

singingfish 6y ago

Once you've got your document working the way you want it it's lovely. It's the journey that's bumpy. This is the same complaint PhD students have been making for at least thirty years.