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Maybe someday the apps that implement open protocols and decentralization are user friendly enough to allow non tech people to use them to talk to each other an

by tobib 6y ago

Maybe someday the apps that implement open protocols and decentralization are user friendly enough to allow non tech people to use them to talk to each other and share baby photos. We've tried Matrix in our friend group and it was impossible for us to get it to work. And that was with a non self hosted identity provider. Signal isn't perfect but it seems to offer better privacy and is trivial to set up.

southerntofu 6y ago
> Maybe someday the apps that implement open protocols and decentralization are user friendly enough That is everyone's dream. The problem is every startup/project with $$$$ is investing into reinventing the entire client/server wheel (Signal, Wire, matrix, threema, etc..) instead of investing their $$$$ into making a user-friendly client for an established/reliable protocol. In this sense, and despite all my criticisms of email/XMPP ecosystems, i'm a big fan of delta.chat and conversations.im. They took a well-established federation, and applied lots of UX/security on top, so that people don't have to choose between freedom and security, and can enjoy modern features in backwards-compatible, federated way. > Signal isn't perfect but it seems to offer better privacy Compared to SMS yes. Signal evolved from smssecure/textsecure which was an encrypted SMS app/protocol (which continues to this day as silence.im though barely maintained by a single exhausted volunteer). But Signal is a central actor that has power over all users at the same time (compared to a federated network like email/matrix/XMPP) so it's less healthy. And in particular, Signal uses servers from big internet giants which thanks to signal using Google's push notifications server on Android (the reason why the libresignal/f-droid vs signal "controversy" started) can give them a really good overview of who's talking to who. I trust that Signal employs some really clever cryptographers and very competent UX designers. I just don't trust anyone (including myself) to hold the privacy of the entire planet, even less so when their plan to protect metadata relies on shady tech (intel SGX) and shady actors (amazon/google) not proper systems architecture, and they have openly/strongly opposed decentralization and standardization/interoperability (see "The ecosystem is moving" and/or the libresignal drama).
- tobib 6y ago
  I wasn't even aware of the 'libresignal/f-droid vs signal "controversy"', thanks for sharing. > Compared to SMS yes. Unencrypting messengers, for sure. I was also thinking of messaging client that encrypt but aren't open source (e.g. WhatsApp) and clients that don't encrypt messages consistently (Telegram). Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It opened up another "level" for me of considerations to think about. I agree that a federated system are the next step in the right direction. For now I'll just enjoy for a while having completely removed myself (and some from my social circle) from the Facebook ecosystem.
schoolornot 6y ago
Was your experience with Matrix bad because of the server setup or the Element client app? If server, I found this video to be super helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDddKmdLEdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDddKmdLEdg
- tobib 6y ago
  We had difficulties "finding" each other. Even when sharing invites to groups, entering the group would fail. I didn't set up my own server though, that was through matrix.org. And probably an intermittent issue. That video explains the setup very well if one is inclined to run their own server. Thanks for sharing.
  - posguy 6y ago
    When was this? Element (formerly Riot) as a client has gone from having serious UX limitations in 2019 to something I can hand to techno-phobic contacts today. Integrating with Slack, IRC, etc all in one app has also been quite convenient.

by tobib 6y ago

southerntofu 6y ago

> Maybe someday the apps that implement open protocols and decentralization are user friendly enough That is everyone's dream. The problem is every startup/project with $$$$ is investing into reinventing the entire client/server wheel (Signal, Wire, matrix, threema, etc..) instead of investing their $$$$ into making a user-friendly client for an established/reliable protocol. In this sense, and despite all my criticisms of email/XMPP ecosystems, i'm a big fan of delta.chat and conversations.im. They took a well-established federation, and applied lots of UX/security on top, so that people don't have to choose between freedom and security, and can enjoy modern features in backwards-compatible, federated way. > Signal isn't perfect but it seems to offer better privacy Compared to SMS yes. Signal evolved from smssecure/textsecure which was an encrypted SMS app/protocol (which continues to this day as silence.im though barely maintained by a single exhausted volunteer). But Signal is a central actor that has power over all users at the same time (compared to a federated network like email/matrix/XMPP) so it's less healthy. And in particular, Signal uses servers from big internet giants which thanks to signal using Google's push notifications server on Android (the reason why the libresignal/f-droid vs signal "controversy" started) can give them a really good overview of who's talking to who. I trust that Signal employs some really clever cryptographers and very competent UX designers. I just don't trust anyone (including myself) to hold the privacy of the entire planet, even less so when their plan to protect metadata relies on shady tech (intel SGX) and shady actors (amazon/google) not proper systems architecture, and they have openly/strongly opposed decentralization and standardization/interoperability (see "The ecosystem is moving" and/or the libresignal drama).

tobib 6y ago
I wasn't even aware of the 'libresignal/f-droid vs signal "controversy"', thanks for sharing. > Compared to SMS yes. Unencrypting messengers, for sure. I was also thinking of messaging client that encrypt but aren't open source (e.g. WhatsApp) and clients that don't encrypt messages consistently (Telegram). Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It opened up another "level" for me of considerations to think about. I agree that a federated system are the next step in the right direction. For now I'll just enjoy for a while having completely removed myself (and some from my social circle) from the Facebook ecosystem.

schoolornot 6y ago

Was your experience with Matrix bad because of the server setup or the Element client app? If server, I found this video to be super helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDddKmdLEdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDddKmdLEdg

tobib 6y ago
We had difficulties "finding" each other. Even when sharing invites to groups, entering the group would fail. I didn't set up my own server though, that was through matrix.org. And probably an intermittent issue. That video explains the setup very well if one is inclined to run their own server. Thanks for sharing.
- posguy 6y ago
  When was this? Element (formerly Riot) as a client has gone from having serious UX limitations in 2019 to something I can hand to techno-phobic contacts today. Integrating with Slack, IRC, etc all in one app has also been quite convenient.