6 ms·

What will it take to convince people of a federated protocol like XMPP? Someday, maybe, we can make people care about open protocols and decentralization.

by zaik 6y ago

tmp538394722 6y ago
A convenient easy to use app that I can use to talk to my mom and my coworkers - all encrypted all the time would go a long way.
- barbazoo 6y ago
  Right now that's Signal.
tobib 6y ago
Maybe someday the apps that implement open protocols and decentralization are user friendly enough to allow non tech people to use them to talk to each other and share baby photos. We've tried Matrix in our friend group and it was impossible for us to get it to work. And that was with a non self hosted identity provider. Signal isn't perfect but it seems to offer better privacy and is trivial to set up.
- southerntofu 6y ago
  > Maybe someday the apps that implement open protocols and decentralization are user friendly enough That is everyone's dream. The problem is every startup/project with $$$$ is investing into reinventing the entire client/server wheel (Signal, Wire, matrix, threema, etc..) instead of investing their $$$$ into making a user-friendly client for an established/reliable protocol. In this sense, and despite all my criticisms of email/XMPP ecosystems, i'm a big fan of delta.chat and conversations.im. They took a well-established federation, and applied lots of UX/security on top, so that people don't have to choose between freedom and security, and can enjoy modern features in backwards-compatible, federated way. > Signal isn't perfect but it seems to offer better privacy Compared to SMS yes. Signal evolved from smssecure/textsecure which was an encrypted SMS app/protocol (which continues to this day as silence.im though barely maintained by a single exhausted volunteer). But Signal is a central actor that has power over all users at the same time (compared to a federated network like email/matrix/XMPP) so it's less healthy. And in particular, Signal uses servers from big internet giants which thanks to signal using Google's push notifications server on Android (the reason why the libresignal/f-droid vs signal "controversy" started) can give them a really good overview of who's talking to who. I trust that Signal employs some really clever cryptographers and very competent UX designers. I just don't trust anyone (including myself) to hold the privacy of the entire planet, even less so when their plan to protect metadata relies on shady tech (intel SGX) and shady actors (amazon/google) not proper systems architecture, and they have openly/strongly opposed decentralization and standardization/interoperability (see "The ecosystem is moving" and/or the libresignal drama).
  - tobib 6y ago
    I wasn't even aware of the 'libresignal/f-droid vs signal "controversy"', thanks for sharing. > Compared to SMS yes. Unencrypting messengers, for sure. I was also thinking of messaging client that encrypt but aren't open source (e.g. WhatsApp) and clients that don't encrypt messages consistently (Telegram). Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It opened up another "level" for me of considerations to think about. I agree that a federated system are the next step in the right direction. For now I'll just enjoy for a while having completely removed myself (and some from my social circle) from the Facebook ecosystem.
- schoolornot 6y ago
  Was your experience with Matrix bad because of the server setup or the Element client app? If server, I found this video to be super helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDddKmdLEdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDddKmdLEdg
  - tobib 6y ago
    We had difficulties "finding" each other. Even when sharing invites to groups, entering the group would fail. I didn't set up my own server though, that was through matrix.org. And probably an intermittent issue. That video explains the setup very well if one is inclined to run their own server. Thanks for sharing.
    - posguy 6y ago
      When was this? Element (formerly Riot) as a client has gone from having serious UX limitations in 2019 to something I can hand to techno-phobic contacts today. Integrating with Slack, IRC, etc all in one app has also been quite convenient.
Seirdy 6y ago
I've tried blogging, with mixed results from people on the other side of the fence. A lot of people are actually less likely to adopt something if I promote it since I'm "that guy" who only uses FLOSS and open platforms. Promotion works better with people who don't know me IRL.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
alacombe 6y ago
XMPP-E2E-extensions seems to be pretty popular song the eastern underground.
greet11882 6y ago
I have a doubt about XMPP, can someone please clarify? If someone logs into my account on another device, how can I know it? In Signal, Telegram etc there is a place in settings that lists all the logged in sessions. But I can't find anything like that in the 'Conversations' android app. Am I missing something?
Siira 6y ago
They need quality; Being fast, frature-ful, open APIs with good wrapper libraries, and not having tons of bugs. While WhatsApp already sucks (each time I try their bloody web app after years it still doesn’t work), other apps have solid quality. Telegram is easily two orders of magnitude more valuable to me than Matrix.

What will it take to convince people of a federated protocol like XMPP? Someday, maybe, we can make people care about open protocols and decentralization.

by zaik 6y ago

What will it take to convince people of a federated protocol like XMPP? Someday, maybe, we can make people care about open protocols and decentralization.

tmp538394722 6y ago

A convenient easy to use app that I can use to talk to my mom and my coworkers - all encrypted all the time would go a long way.

barbazoo 6y ago
Right now that's Signal.

tobib 6y ago

Maybe someday the apps that implement open protocols and decentralization are user friendly enough to allow non tech people to use them to talk to each other and share baby photos. We've tried Matrix in our friend group and it was impossible for us to get it to work. And that was with a non self hosted identity provider. Signal isn't perfect but it seems to offer better privacy and is trivial to set up.

southerntofu 6y ago
> Maybe someday the apps that implement open protocols and decentralization are user friendly enough That is everyone's dream. The problem is every startup/project with $$$$ is investing into reinventing the entire client/server wheel (Signal, Wire, matrix, threema, etc..) instead of investing their $$$$ into making a user-friendly client for an established/reliable protocol. In this sense, and despite all my criticisms of email/XMPP ecosystems, i'm a big fan of delta.chat and conversations.im. They took a well-established federation, and applied lots of UX/security on top, so that people don't have to choose between freedom and security, and can enjoy modern features in backwards-compatible, federated way. > Signal isn't perfect but it seems to offer better privacy Compared to SMS yes. Signal evolved from smssecure/textsecure which was an encrypted SMS app/protocol (which continues to this day as silence.im though barely maintained by a single exhausted volunteer). But Signal is a central actor that has power over all users at the same time (compared to a federated network like email/matrix/XMPP) so it's less healthy. And in particular, Signal uses servers from big internet giants which thanks to signal using Google's push notifications server on Android (the reason why the libresignal/f-droid vs signal "controversy" started) can give them a really good overview of who's talking to who. I trust that Signal employs some really clever cryptographers and very competent UX designers. I just don't trust anyone (including myself) to hold the privacy of the entire planet, even less so when their plan to protect metadata relies on shady tech (intel SGX) and shady actors (amazon/google) not proper systems architecture, and they have openly/strongly opposed decentralization and standardization/interoperability (see "The ecosystem is moving" and/or the libresignal drama).
- tobib 6y ago
  I wasn't even aware of the 'libresignal/f-droid vs signal "controversy"', thanks for sharing. > Compared to SMS yes. Unencrypting messengers, for sure. I was also thinking of messaging client that encrypt but aren't open source (e.g. WhatsApp) and clients that don't encrypt messages consistently (Telegram). Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It opened up another "level" for me of considerations to think about. I agree that a federated system are the next step in the right direction. For now I'll just enjoy for a while having completely removed myself (and some from my social circle) from the Facebook ecosystem.
schoolornot 6y ago
Was your experience with Matrix bad because of the server setup or the Element client app? If server, I found this video to be super helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDddKmdLEdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDddKmdLEdg
- tobib 6y ago
  We had difficulties "finding" each other. Even when sharing invites to groups, entering the group would fail. I didn't set up my own server though, that was through matrix.org. And probably an intermittent issue. That video explains the setup very well if one is inclined to run their own server. Thanks for sharing.
  - posguy 6y ago
    When was this? Element (formerly Riot) as a client has gone from having serious UX limitations in 2019 to something I can hand to techno-phobic contacts today. Integrating with Slack, IRC, etc all in one app has also been quite convenient.

Seirdy 6y ago

I've tried blogging, with mixed results from people on the other side of the fence. A lot of people are actually less likely to adopt something if I promote it since I'm "that guy" who only uses FLOSS and open platforms. Promotion works better with people who don't know me IRL.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

alacombe 6y ago

XMPP-E2E-extensions seems to be pretty popular song the eastern underground.

greet11882 6y ago

I have a doubt about XMPP, can someone please clarify? If someone logs into my account on another device, how can I know it? In Signal, Telegram etc there is a place in settings that lists all the logged in sessions. But I can't find anything like that in the 'Conversations' android app. Am I missing something?

Siira 6y ago

They need quality; Being fast, frature-ful, open APIs with good wrapper libraries, and not having tons of bugs. While WhatsApp already sucks (each time I try their bloody web app after years it still doesn’t work), other apps have solid quality. Telegram is easily two orders of magnitude more valuable to me than Matrix.