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It's an interesting book and (I think) well written, but we should take care not to take it as factual. Gulags were real and very awful places, but Solzhenitsyn

It's an interesting book and (I think) well written, but we should take care not to take it as factual. Gulags were real and very awful places, but Solzhenitsyn wasn't writing a history or a scientifically investigated piece. He was writing material for future novels, and much of the book is fabrication. His wife's autobiography (and other places) confirm what's a fairly widespread view outside of the OECD world. She called western responses to it "overestimated and wrongly appraised", and mentions that Solzhenitsyn himself never viewed the book as "historical research, or scientific research, but [rather more] a 'camp folklore' collection". Solzhenitsyn wrote a lot and TGA seems like a melting pot of his own anticommunist beliefs, his experiences under Soviet rule, and an interest in his craft as a writer. But it's not 100% a historically accurate book. Obviously (shouldn't have to say it but who knows these days) gulags were bad and I wouldn't want to be placed into one etc. I do however think we do ourselves a disservice when taking untrue accounts as factual, as is the case in a lot of western treatment of Soviet leaders (esp. Stalin; Lenin seems to get more of a pass).

TimTheTinker 6y ago
Your comment reads like propaganda, trying to hand-wave away one of the greatest works of journalism in the 20th century. Of course it reads like a novel and not an exposé - he had to memorize a huge portion of it. But it's an accurate indictment nonetheless.
- WaxProlix 6y ago
  I think that you seeing this work of fiction as one of the greatest works of journalism of the 20th century is exactly why I posted. I agree that the gulag system sucks? So don't think I'm in favor of the USSR or something, because I'm not. But the book's content isn't real, it's largely fabrication, and you can say something like "I think he speaks to the truth of the situation despite not accurately representing facts and statistics" if you want to. But I don't think it's right to act like The Gulag Archipelago is anything but a novel, albeit one that maybe expounds truths beyond its content, especially in an arena like this which claims to value factuality. I also think you missed the part where the author acknowledges that it's a work of fiction and informed by real experiences but not meant to relate to reality per se. So while I value your input (of course!) I can't help but wonder if a re-read of previous comments might be in order.
  - zpeti 6y ago
    Gulag system sucks? I don't know what country you are from, but I doubt its any with experiences of death camps. Take your non historical post truth head out of your ass and realise that MILLIONS of people were killed in nazi germany, the gulags, by the chinese communists. MILLIONS others were starved to death because food was confiscated from them. These systems don't SUCK. They were the lowest points of human history. I'm so fucking angry with apologists like you. You have no idea what people went through.
    - WaxProlix 6y ago
      > Gulag system sucks? > I don't know what country you are from, but I doubt its any with experiences of death camps. I'm sorry that I wasn't sufficiently excoratory of the gulags. What adjective do you think would make you feel I have an acceptable level of distaste for forced labor camps? I also don't think the gulags were death camps, weren't they "reeducation" and labor camps? Unlike a death camp, the point is to produce labor (in large part this uncompensated, essentially slave, labor was a major contributor to the USSR's ability to take on a half decade's industrialization in a fifth of the time, or so I'm led to believe). > I'm so fucking angry with apologists like you. You have no idea what people went through. I don't think you're in a state to have a rational conversation about politics, because it sounds like you have personal or familial experience with these institutions. I know some of my close friends have very close ties to the Trail of Tears in the USA and I also avoid talking to them about the issue - not because it's taboo, but because I don't think there's a meaningful conversation to be had there. It was an atrocity, and will never be made right. What can you say to that?
  - TimTheTinker 6y ago
    Solzhenitsyn is required reading today for Russion schoolchildren. That alone ought to speak to its importance and accuracy -- not of figures per se (unbeknownst to him, some of his sources were not accurate), but the reality of the horrors committed by the Soviets, which he experienced first-hand. Have you read at least the first few chapters of The Gulag Archipelago?
    - 6y ago
zpeti 6y ago
Are all the books written about Auschwitz also "more novels than scientific fact then"? How does your post truth attitude account for the fact that the stories that have come out of the gulags and auschwitz by many many people seem to tell the same stories? Are these just fictional novels popping up in everyone's heads? Shameful, I'm so angry after reading this, as someone from one of these countries who's family was affected. You should be ashamed for trying to normalise this type of society.

TimTheTinker 6y ago

Your comment reads like propaganda, trying to hand-wave away one of the greatest works of journalism in the 20th century. Of course it reads like a novel and not an exposé - he had to memorize a huge portion of it. But it's an accurate indictment nonetheless.

WaxProlix 6y ago
I think that you seeing this work of fiction as one of the greatest works of journalism of the 20th century is exactly why I posted. I agree that the gulag system sucks? So don't think I'm in favor of the USSR or something, because I'm not. But the book's content isn't real, it's largely fabrication, and you can say something like "I think he speaks to the truth of the situation despite not accurately representing facts and statistics" if you want to. But I don't think it's right to act like The Gulag Archipelago is anything but a novel, albeit one that maybe expounds truths beyond its content, especially in an arena like this which claims to value factuality. I also think you missed the part where the author acknowledges that it's a work of fiction and informed by real experiences but not meant to relate to reality per se. So while I value your input (of course!) I can't help but wonder if a re-read of previous comments might be in order.
- zpeti 6y ago
  Gulag system sucks? I don't know what country you are from, but I doubt its any with experiences of death camps. Take your non historical post truth head out of your ass and realise that MILLIONS of people were killed in nazi germany, the gulags, by the chinese communists. MILLIONS others were starved to death because food was confiscated from them. These systems don't SUCK. They were the lowest points of human history. I'm so fucking angry with apologists like you. You have no idea what people went through.
  - WaxProlix 6y ago
    > Gulag system sucks? > I don't know what country you are from, but I doubt its any with experiences of death camps. I'm sorry that I wasn't sufficiently excoratory of the gulags. What adjective do you think would make you feel I have an acceptable level of distaste for forced labor camps? I also don't think the gulags were death camps, weren't they "reeducation" and labor camps? Unlike a death camp, the point is to produce labor (in large part this uncompensated, essentially slave, labor was a major contributor to the USSR's ability to take on a half decade's industrialization in a fifth of the time, or so I'm led to believe). > I'm so fucking angry with apologists like you. You have no idea what people went through. I don't think you're in a state to have a rational conversation about politics, because it sounds like you have personal or familial experience with these institutions. I know some of my close friends have very close ties to the Trail of Tears in the USA and I also avoid talking to them about the issue - not because it's taboo, but because I don't think there's a meaningful conversation to be had there. It was an atrocity, and will never be made right. What can you say to that?
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  Solzhenitsyn is required reading today for Russion schoolchildren. That alone ought to speak to its importance and accuracy -- not of figures per se (unbeknownst to him, some of his sources were not accurate), but the reality of the horrors committed by the Soviets, which he experienced first-hand. Have you read at least the first few chapters of The Gulag Archipelago?
  - 6y ago

zpeti 6y ago

Are all the books written about Auschwitz also "more novels than scientific fact then"? How does your post truth attitude account for the fact that the stories that have come out of the gulags and auschwitz by many many people seem to tell the same stories? Are these just fictional novels popping up in everyone's heads? Shameful, I'm so angry after reading this, as someone from one of these countries who's family was affected. You should be ashamed for trying to normalise this type of society.