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> Hiring more black people It's not like there's a large, untapped pool of talented black software engineers. I'm at a large tech company. There was a team I

> Hiring more black people It's not like there's a large, untapped pool of talented black software engineers. I'm at a large tech company. There was a team I worked with for a big with some really talented people, the sort of team where really smart domain experts go. There was a black guy on it who asked questions showing he wasn't an obviously talented domain expert. I found out he was recruited for coming from an unconventional background and was spending time with different teams. Large tech companies are trying really hard to finds diamonds in the rough, and they're taking chances on people that aren't talented enough. The other issue is blacks are only 13% of the American population. Seattle is only 7%. Now imagine you're an even smaller minority. It's about people not being assholes, not "hiring more x people" because that will always fall short for some group.

asdff 6y ago
On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.
- jimmygrapes 6y ago
  Does culture play no role in this? Why assume race is the primary driver?
  - entee 6y ago
    Surely it does, a culture that makes people feel unwelcome and doesn’t invest in helping them thrive in an environment where they are in the minority definitely plays a role.
    - robin21 6y ago
      How do you explain Asians making up almost half of FAANG startups?
      - entee 6y ago
        Note that as far as I know, all the founders of FAANG were white guys. As for why many Asian people work there, I think there is a strong bias toward engineering/medicine among many immigrant communities that came from a relatively educated background in their home countries (I count myself in that cohort, though I’m not Asian). Crucially though, once they got into the community they were more likely to blend into the group at every stage. It’s hard to be the only one in a class/company/group that looks like you. That’s a big obstacle and we should be more supportive of those who overcome it. Also, while Asians make up a large portion of line engineer positions, they make up a smaller fraction of leadership positions. That’s troubling to me as well.
        robin21 6y ago
        https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/25badfc6b6d1b33f3b87372ff7545d79261520d821e6ee9a82c4ab2de42a01216be2156bc5a60ae3337ffe7176d90b8b2b3000891ac6e516a650ecebf0e3f866 https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/25badfc6b6d1b33f... See leadership. 30% Asian (6% us pop) 60% white (65% us pop) Asians widely over represented. Should we give less jobs to Asians and more to blacks and Hispanics? This kind of points to socioeconomic and educational opportunities in early life. Blacks come from poorer backgrounds etc. But why bring race into it? Why not lift up people from poorer backgrounds of all races, instead of racist affirmative action policies. These diversity reports are basically saying: we need to make our employees less racist and sexist when hiring.
        sokoloff 6y ago
        That leaves the critical question: "lift up how and when?" Lift up by better primary education? Lift up by more outreach to get more poorer people into computing as young adults? Or lift up by having hiring quotas for people whose family income was provably bottom quartile for at least 5 years in their childhood?
        robin21 6y ago
        The goal should be to have the same academic achievement as their peers at the company they are working for. It’s unfair for smart blacks to be thought of us diversity hires. I can think of nothing worse than having your intelligence questioned your entire career. Surely someone has studied this though. “Why did you not choose comp sci major?” All the answers are there. The fact we don’t hear about it is probably because it doesn’t fit the narrative that intersectionalism wants to tell. Last time I went to research the history of why women were dominant in tech and then then minority, it was nothing to do with sexism surprise, surprise. Exposure to computers at a young age is everything. I will do some more research though and come back <- the best part about HN conversations for me.
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  "Strikingly white"? Tech industry in California is probably the least white white collar industry in this country.
  - asdff 6y ago
    You have to frame it relative to the pipeline to see how overt this bias is. In the CompSci major at UC berkely, for example, only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). That is striking to me. 1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-california-berkeley/academic-life/academic-majors/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/index.html#diversity https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo... 2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-reports-little-progress/ https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...
    - Tycho 6y ago
      How many programmers graduate from Berkeley each year and how many are employed in the FANGs in the Bay Area? How many Berkeley graduates are in the top 0.01% of available talent, given all the other people who want to work for FANG’s in the Bay Area?
- worker767424 6y ago
  > 37%...22% Metrics for particular degrees would be more helpful. Some of those 22% are in accounting. > So why are tech companies so strikingly white Um, what? Maybe for early-stage startups. If you'd said "strikingly white, Indian, and East Asian," I'd agree.
  - asdff 6y ago
    Lets look at the compSci major at UC berkely, then, where only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). That is a striking difference to me. 1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-california-berkeley/academic-life/academic-majors/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/index.html#diversity https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo... 2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-reports-little-progress/ https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...
- neartheplain 6y ago
  Far more than 3% of my white tech colleagues have been Jewish, despite making up only 3% of the US and California populations. Would you claim this implies a pro-Jewish, anti-Gentile tech hiring bias? I would disagree with you, and suggest that your kind of logic leads to very dark places.
  - asdff 6y ago
    I would argue that Jewish people are overrepresented in higher education than other groups and generally occupy a higher class level than more recent immigrants or groups under systemic oppression by the legal system in recent decades. Most Jewish families at this point have been in this country for several generations now building roots for their families, just like the Italians and Irish at this point who also came to NYC ~a century ago. They haven't been the whipping boy at the bottom of the economic totem in a long time. These days, that unfavorable position is occupied by more recently migrated groups. I mean the rhetoric from the outgoing president alone about central American immigrants was truly abhorrent and dehumanized them in the eyes of his supporters. However, that still doesn't explain why in the CompSci major at UC berkely, only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). 1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-california-berkeley/academic-life/academic-majors/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/index.html#diversity https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo... 2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-reports-little-progress/ https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...
    - neartheplain 6y ago
      That is interesting. I didn't know that whites, who make up 73% of the US population, were so underrepresented not only in Silicon Valley but also at UC Berkeley.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
entee 6y ago
Respectfully, this is the wrong way to look at the problem. It’s true, objectively, that there are fewer minority/female CS graduates. But there’s no way that gets better if a person who is “not a subject matter expert” gets dismissed. That person needs to be trained. If they want to be expert at that subject, we as an industry need to be able to help them get there. Increasingly I believe the problem with diversity in tech is a retention and training problem, not a pipeline problem. If you’re a woman and you want to be a coder but all you hear about is hell stories, why would you sign up for that major? Our job is to make those who are generous enough in spirit to decide they want to do this thing, in spite of all the pain they might face, the best coders they can possibly be. Only then will they be able to provide the positive reinforcement necessary to improve input pipelines. Same applies to any underrepresented group.
- worker767424 6y ago
  Do you think there's any chance hell stories become a self-fulfilling prophecy?
- arp242 6y ago
  > If you’re a woman and you want to be a coder but all you hear about is hell stories, why would you sign up for that major I think this is a bit more complex; think of something like Revenge of the Nerds where computer peeps are all socially inept (sometimes borderline creepy) otherworldly nerds whose only interest in life is computers. Would you want to work in an environment like that? I wouldn't. And luckily I don't because that's not really what most programmers are like. I can count the number of people I've met that fit this stereotype on a single hand, and I've met quite a number of programmers at conferences and such over the years. I feel these problems run much deeper than just "hell stories from women". Luckily in the last ~10/20 years attitudes seem to be changing somewhat for the better, but for a long time during the 80s, 90s, and 00s the perception of the average programmer was not especially positive.
  - entee 6y ago
    Fully agreed, there's a whole lot going on beyond stories of bad experiences. It's a complicated issue, I just think we're focusing on the wrong problem if we're just looking at this from a pipeline point of view and not asking what factors contribute to the pipeline being sub-optimal. Too often I hear, "women just like people more than men," and other similar BS, which lets us as an industry off the hook for creating sub-par environments.

asdff 6y ago

On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.

jimmygrapes 6y ago
Does culture play no role in this? Why assume race is the primary driver?
- entee 6y ago
  Surely it does, a culture that makes people feel unwelcome and doesn’t invest in helping them thrive in an environment where they are in the minority definitely plays a role.
  - robin21 6y ago
    How do you explain Asians making up almost half of FAANG startups?
    - entee 6y ago
      Note that as far as I know, all the founders of FAANG were white guys. As for why many Asian people work there, I think there is a strong bias toward engineering/medicine among many immigrant communities that came from a relatively educated background in their home countries (I count myself in that cohort, though I’m not Asian). Crucially though, once they got into the community they were more likely to blend into the group at every stage. It’s hard to be the only one in a class/company/group that looks like you. That’s a big obstacle and we should be more supportive of those who overcome it. Also, while Asians make up a large portion of line engineer positions, they make up a smaller fraction of leadership positions. That’s troubling to me as well.
      - robin21 6y ago
        https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/25badfc6b6d1b33f3b87372ff7545d79261520d821e6ee9a82c4ab2de42a01216be2156bc5a60ae3337ffe7176d90b8b2b3000891ac6e516a650ecebf0e3f866 https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/25badfc6b6d1b33f... See leadership. 30% Asian (6% us pop) 60% white (65% us pop) Asians widely over represented. Should we give less jobs to Asians and more to blacks and Hispanics? This kind of points to socioeconomic and educational opportunities in early life. Blacks come from poorer backgrounds etc. But why bring race into it? Why not lift up people from poorer backgrounds of all races, instead of racist affirmative action policies. These diversity reports are basically saying: we need to make our employees less racist and sexist when hiring.
        sokoloff 6y ago
        That leaves the critical question: "lift up how and when?" Lift up by better primary education? Lift up by more outreach to get more poorer people into computing as young adults? Or lift up by having hiring quotas for people whose family income was provably bottom quartile for at least 5 years in their childhood?
        robin21 6y ago
        The goal should be to have the same academic achievement as their peers at the company they are working for. It’s unfair for smart blacks to be thought of us diversity hires. I can think of nothing worse than having your intelligence questioned your entire career. Surely someone has studied this though. “Why did you not choose comp sci major?” All the answers are there. The fact we don’t hear about it is probably because it doesn’t fit the narrative that intersectionalism wants to tell. Last time I went to research the history of why women were dominant in tech and then then minority, it was nothing to do with sexism surprise, surprise. Exposure to computers at a young age is everything. I will do some more research though and come back <- the best part about HN conversations for me.
xyzzyz 6y ago
"Strikingly white"? Tech industry in California is probably the least white white collar industry in this country.
- asdff 6y ago
  You have to frame it relative to the pipeline to see how overt this bias is. In the CompSci major at UC berkely, for example, only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). That is striking to me. 1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-california-berkeley/academic-life/academic-majors/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/index.html#diversity https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo... 2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-reports-little-progress/ https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...
  - Tycho 6y ago
    How many programmers graduate from Berkeley each year and how many are employed in the FANGs in the Bay Area? How many Berkeley graduates are in the top 0.01% of available talent, given all the other people who want to work for FANG’s in the Bay Area?
worker767424 6y ago
> 37%...22% Metrics for particular degrees would be more helpful. Some of those 22% are in accounting. > So why are tech companies so strikingly white Um, what? Maybe for early-stage startups. If you'd said "strikingly white, Indian, and East Asian," I'd agree.
- asdff 6y ago
  Lets look at the compSci major at UC berkely, then, where only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). That is a striking difference to me. 1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-california-berkeley/academic-life/academic-majors/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/index.html#diversity https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo... 2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-reports-little-progress/ https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...
neartheplain 6y ago
Far more than 3% of my white tech colleagues have been Jewish, despite making up only 3% of the US and California populations. Would you claim this implies a pro-Jewish, anti-Gentile tech hiring bias? I would disagree with you, and suggest that your kind of logic leads to very dark places.
- asdff 6y ago
  I would argue that Jewish people are overrepresented in higher education than other groups and generally occupy a higher class level than more recent immigrants or groups under systemic oppression by the legal system in recent decades. Most Jewish families at this point have been in this country for several generations now building roots for their families, just like the Italians and Irish at this point who also came to NYC ~a century ago. They haven't been the whipping boy at the bottom of the economic totem in a long time. These days, that unfavorable position is occupied by more recently migrated groups. I mean the rhetoric from the outgoing president alone about central American immigrants was truly abhorrent and dehumanized them in the eyes of his supporters. However, that still doesn't explain why in the CompSci major at UC berkely, only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). 1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-california-berkeley/academic-life/academic-majors/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/index.html#diversity https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo... 2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-reports-little-progress/ https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...
  - neartheplain 6y ago
    That is interesting. I didn't know that whites, who make up 73% of the US population, were so underrepresented not only in Silicon Valley but also at UC Berkeley.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

entee 6y ago

Respectfully, this is the wrong way to look at the problem. It’s true, objectively, that there are fewer minority/female CS graduates. But there’s no way that gets better if a person who is “not a subject matter expert” gets dismissed. That person needs to be trained. If they want to be expert at that subject, we as an industry need to be able to help them get there. Increasingly I believe the problem with diversity in tech is a retention and training problem, not a pipeline problem. If you’re a woman and you want to be a coder but all you hear about is hell stories, why would you sign up for that major? Our job is to make those who are generous enough in spirit to decide they want to do this thing, in spite of all the pain they might face, the best coders they can possibly be. Only then will they be able to provide the positive reinforcement necessary to improve input pipelines. Same applies to any underrepresented group.

worker767424 6y ago
Do you think there's any chance hell stories become a self-fulfilling prophecy?
arp242 6y ago
> If you’re a woman and you want to be a coder but all you hear about is hell stories, why would you sign up for that major I think this is a bit more complex; think of something like Revenge of the Nerds where computer peeps are all socially inept (sometimes borderline creepy) otherworldly nerds whose only interest in life is computers. Would you want to work in an environment like that? I wouldn't. And luckily I don't because that's not really what most programmers are like. I can count the number of people I've met that fit this stereotype on a single hand, and I've met quite a number of programmers at conferences and such over the years. I feel these problems run much deeper than just "hell stories from women". Luckily in the last ~10/20 years attitudes seem to be changing somewhat for the better, but for a long time during the 80s, 90s, and 00s the perception of the average programmer was not especially positive.
- entee 6y ago
  Fully agreed, there's a whole lot going on beyond stories of bad experiences. It's a complicated issue, I just think we're focusing on the wrong problem if we're just looking at this from a pipeline point of view and not asking what factors contribute to the pipeline being sub-optimal. Too often I hear, "women just like people more than men," and other similar BS, which lets us as an industry off the hook for creating sub-par environments.