4 ms·

It's supposed to be a severe punishment, usually reserved for serious or repeat offenders. If someone works their ass off at minimum wage for a week, just to h

It's supposed to be a severe punishment, usually reserved for serious or repeat offenders. If someone works their ass off at minimum wage for a week, just to have the fruit of their work stolen in a minute, and the thief got caught doing this for the third time (which means the thief likely also got away with it dozens of times), what then? Most importantly, why should that person work their ass off for another week, instead of going somewhere else, stealing something, and enjoying the remaining 39 hours off? House arrest exists, but it depends on that person not just ignoring it and running away, and is significantly milder for the reasons you listed.

MH15 6y ago
It'd be good to consider what percentage of the jail/prison population is actually incarcerated for serious crimes. https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/ https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/
csnover 6y ago
> It's supposed to be a severe punishment, usually reserved for serious or repeat offenders. First, prison in general, and long sentences in particular, are generally not used that way. Second, why are you trying to punish people for what they’ve done instead of trying to help them so they can learn to do something other than crime and contribute to society? > If someone works their ass off at minimum wage for a week, just to have the fruit of their work stolen in a minute, and the thief got caught doing this for the third time (which means the thief likely also got away with it dozens of times), what then? Perhaps focus on why you live in a society where people feel like they need to steal low value things (necessarily, as you have said it was the fruit of a minimum-wage worker) to survive. (A side note: as of 2017, prisoners in the United States with jobs get paid, on average, a maximum of $3.45 per day[0], if you want to compare yet another situation that is worse than working for minimum wage.) > House arrest exists, but it depends on that person not just ignoring it and running away, and is significantly milder for the reasons you listed. The point I was making is that house arrest is not that mild at all, and that maybe more people will realise this after being in house-arrest-lite for a year and have more reluctance to subject fellow humans to even harsher and more cruel conditions. [0] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/
- MagnumOpus 6y ago
  > Perhaps focus on why you live in a society where people feel like they need to steal low value things There are antisocial and lazy people everywhere, even in places with a better welfare system than the US. The phone snatching and bike stealing gangs of London aren't doing it to pay for their mum's cancer treatment or to provide food for their kids, they do it because one fun night of robbery pays more than a boring week of work in a grocery or a building site.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- kortilla 6y ago
  > Perhaps focus on why you live in a society where people feel like they need to steal low value things (necessarily, as you have said it was the fruit of a minimum-wage worker) to survive. “Need” is rarely why people steal. The calculus is, “I want this thing, I don’t have an ethical problem taking it, I think I can get away from it.”
  - csnover 6y ago
    Look, I understand the appeal of an argument that paints criminals as simply having poor morals, but it is a completely false and reductive argument that does not capture the complexity behind why people commit crimes. It’s easy to ‘be ethical’ when your needs are taken care of and you’re in an environment that supports you and guides you into being a healthy member of society. When I say “need”, I don’t mean literally in the sense of “I need to steal that thing or I will die”. I mean it in the sense of a person being satisfied in enough aspects of their life, and having the necessary skills, to turn themselves away from committing crime.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      >having the necessary skills, to turn themselves away from committing crime. I grew up running with a sketchy crowd. I knew several people who stole things on a recurring basis. None of them did it because they were desperate or had “poor morals”. You’re deriving this from an incorrect mental model where nobody “wants to steal” and they do it out of desperation. This leaves out people who steal for the thrill, steal because they literally have no moral problem with taking from huge corporations, etc., I think you’ll find nearly identical justifications between a guy that votes for someone to raise taxes on mega corporations and an anarchist who just steals from them directly.
pessimizer 6y ago
> If someone works their ass off at minimum wage for a week, just to have the fruit of their work stolen in a minute You're talking about white collar crime and financial exploitation, which generally is illegal but isn't punished, or is actually legalized. The kind of people who go to prison are lucky if they steal two or three days worth of your work.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  I think gp is just talking about theft/robbery in general without specifying the type.

MH15 6y ago

It'd be good to consider what percentage of the jail/prison population is actually incarcerated for serious crimes. https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/ https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/

csnover 6y ago

> It's supposed to be a severe punishment, usually reserved for serious or repeat offenders. First, prison in general, and long sentences in particular, are generally not used that way. Second, why are you trying to punish people for what they’ve done instead of trying to help them so they can learn to do something other than crime and contribute to society? > If someone works their ass off at minimum wage for a week, just to have the fruit of their work stolen in a minute, and the thief got caught doing this for the third time (which means the thief likely also got away with it dozens of times), what then? Perhaps focus on why you live in a society where people feel like they need to steal low value things (necessarily, as you have said it was the fruit of a minimum-wage worker) to survive. (A side note: as of 2017, prisoners in the United States with jobs get paid, on average, a maximum of $3.45 per day[0], if you want to compare yet another situation that is worse than working for minimum wage.) > House arrest exists, but it depends on that person not just ignoring it and running away, and is significantly milder for the reasons you listed. The point I was making is that house arrest is not that mild at all, and that maybe more people will realise this after being in house-arrest-lite for a year and have more reluctance to subject fellow humans to even harsher and more cruel conditions. [0] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/

MagnumOpus 6y ago
> Perhaps focus on why you live in a society where people feel like they need to steal low value things There are antisocial and lazy people everywhere, even in places with a better welfare system than the US. The phone snatching and bike stealing gangs of London aren't doing it to pay for their mum's cancer treatment or to provide food for their kids, they do it because one fun night of robbery pays more than a boring week of work in a grocery or a building site.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
kortilla 6y ago
> Perhaps focus on why you live in a society where people feel like they need to steal low value things (necessarily, as you have said it was the fruit of a minimum-wage worker) to survive. “Need” is rarely why people steal. The calculus is, “I want this thing, I don’t have an ethical problem taking it, I think I can get away from it.”
- csnover 6y ago
  Look, I understand the appeal of an argument that paints criminals as simply having poor morals, but it is a completely false and reductive argument that does not capture the complexity behind why people commit crimes. It’s easy to ‘be ethical’ when your needs are taken care of and you’re in an environment that supports you and guides you into being a healthy member of society. When I say “need”, I don’t mean literally in the sense of “I need to steal that thing or I will die”. I mean it in the sense of a person being satisfied in enough aspects of their life, and having the necessary skills, to turn themselves away from committing crime.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    >having the necessary skills, to turn themselves away from committing crime. I grew up running with a sketchy crowd. I knew several people who stole things on a recurring basis. None of them did it because they were desperate or had “poor morals”. You’re deriving this from an incorrect mental model where nobody “wants to steal” and they do it out of desperation. This leaves out people who steal for the thrill, steal because they literally have no moral problem with taking from huge corporations, etc., I think you’ll find nearly identical justifications between a guy that votes for someone to raise taxes on mega corporations and an anarchist who just steals from them directly.

pessimizer 6y ago

> If someone works their ass off at minimum wage for a week, just to have the fruit of their work stolen in a minute You're talking about white collar crime and financial exploitation, which generally is illegal but isn't punished, or is actually legalized. The kind of people who go to prison are lucky if they steal two or three days worth of your work.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
I think gp is just talking about theft/robbery in general without specifying the type.