8 ms·

How does that overcome systemic bias, eg prevalent poverty in many minority groups. The poor don’t have resources, wealth or contacts, to become a super coder/

How does that overcome systemic bias, eg prevalent poverty in many minority groups. The poor don’t have resources, wealth or contacts, to become a super coder/manager/whatever so they don’t make it into your applicant pool based on skill alone in the first place. The cycle continues. Breaking the cycle is hard. You could target low income children but that leaves everyone looking for jobs today in the cold, etc etc. It’s a tough nut to crack but trying to fix historical bias isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

ipaddr 6y ago
You need to fix that at the education level. Offering free top notch education can go a long way.
- conception 6y ago
  I agree but that ignores people trying to make it today and doesn’t create any “heroes” or mentors for those in education today.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  Usually, you need to start super super early. Achievement gaps show up pretty early and only get wider. And I don’t think most companies have the stomach for broad-based improvements to education starting all the way from elementary school or even preschool, particularly when the payoff is going to be when the first wave of kids in preschool make it out of at least undergrad. Of course, the superlocal, balkanized property tax system used to fund schools really doesn’t help things.
- malandrew 6y ago
  > Offering free top notch education can go a long way I find it strange that people think you can just magically provide a top notch school and things magically correct themselves. How can you completely discount the impact of the parents involvement with their children's educational life? Paraphasing JFK, "Ask not what your school can do for your kid's education, but what you can do for your kid's education". Parents play a huge part in imparting good values in their children and also holding their children accountable for their performance in school. Furthermore, when some kids do poorly that rubs off on all the other kids by lowering the bar and setting bad examples. The parents set bad examples for their kids and then those kids set bad examples for other kids. It's turtles all the way down. "If you want to see the poor remain poor, generation after generation, just keep the standards low in their schools and make excuses for their academic shortcomings and personal misbehavior. But please don't congratulate yourself on your compassion." – Thomas Sowell
rsweeney21 6y ago
The systemic bias I faced was that people assumed I was poor, didn't have resources, wealth or contacts because I am a Native American.
- conception 6y ago
  You seem very upset that IBM is trying to give jobs to a group that has had a persistent lack of opportunity. Congrats that you’re rich and well connected, but you’re exceptional in this regard.
  - nzmsv 6y ago
    Isn't it a bit weird to have someone who is not Native American (you) tell an actual Native American how they should feel and what kind of experiences they are supposed to have had? I would guess that the subset of Native Americans who have a chance of getting the IBM job are more like the OP and less like the ones you are picturing. But no, instead it's "how dare you think our cringeworthy efforts to make you feel included are cringeworthy" :)
    - pvaldes 6y ago
      > Isn't it a bit weird to have someone who is not Native American tell an actual Native American how they should feel. Not. Human experience is universal. Every single human in the planet can understand how other humans feel. We all have experienced similar events before and can provide solid advice about it to fellow humans. "You can't understand me, because I'm ... (native /black / woman / trans / philatelic...) and you aren't" is a very popular opinion. Very popular, very gratifying, and totally wrong.
      - refurb 6y ago
        It's not binary. Sure, there are elements of being human that transcend racial, ethic and cultural differences, but there aspects that are difficult to understand if you didn't grow up in that culture or have extensive exposure.
belorn 6y ago
It is impossible to solve systemic bias by using discrimination. It has never worked in the past despite an untold number of attempts. In a very similar way, violence create violence in very predictable cycles. Like violence, the solution to systemic bias are simple but unattractive. Don't display and rub symbols in people faces. Do not create ambiguous borders between groups of people. Treat each person as individual and avoid generalizations. Add social and economical support based on lack of those resources on an individual level, from the bottom up. The progress towards equally would look very different if people weren't constantly doing the opposite in the belief that this time the symbols will convince the enemy of the wrong doing, the ambiguous borders will work, the generalizations will send the important message, and that top to bottom approach will create a foundation for change.
- conception 6y ago
  Despite declarations that busing to desegregate schools failed in the 1970s and 1980s, that era actually saw significant improvement in educational equity. When the National Assessment of Educational Progress began in the early 1970s, there was a 53-point gap in reading scores between black and white 17-year-olds. That chasm narrowed to 20 points by 1988. During that time, every region of the country except the Northeast saw steady gains in school integration. In the South in 1968, 78 percent of black children attended schools with almost exclusively minority students; by 1988, only 24 percent did. In the West during that period, the figure declined from 51 percent to 29 percent. But since 1988, when education policy shifted away from desegregation efforts, the reading test score gap has grown — to 26 points in 2012 — with segregated schooling increasing in every region of the country. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - belorn 6y ago
    The case is interesting, through I would compare it to a similar but failed experiment in Sweden where students of got free points in their grade if they applied to a program where there would be a minority. Why did one have some success and the other had none? I would go back to the things I wrote above about what to do and what not to do. Providing free buses to people who live far away from desired schools do not rub the act in the face of people who live near those schools and do not need buses. It might cause a negative side effect that school buses becomes a symbolic proxy for being poor, making those intended to use them less likely to agree to use them, but it extends the option available for those who only have few options to begin with. In contrast, free grade points is much more displayed directly in the face of other fellow students, both to those who get into the program and those who were rejected with similar grades. Free buses does not provide any ambiguous borders or rules once the student is at school. The requirements and expectations of the student is same as any other student. There are few situation where uncertainty and doubt can occur between buss and non-buss student, except maybe for times of heavy snow or road congestion. To my knowledge, when students who depend on buses can't reach the school and thus given a pass to skip school, the other students are given the same pass. If we go back to the Swedish example, requirements and expectations get ambiguous when people get in through other means than merit, causing tensions between those who got in through grades and those who got in through the free points system. Both systems has generalizations, so I would say that a way to improve the desegregation efforts would have been to skip the qualification of race and simply provide the busing to any individual that is below a set amount of wealth and live a distance far away from the desired school in order to need a bus. Such change might have saved it from being abandoned in 1988.
rayiner 6y ago
There are disparities companies can fix through hiring practices and ones they can’t. Systemic bias is one they can’t—who Google hires or doesn’t simply doesn’t move the needle on generational poverty. Even if every professional industry does it, that doesn’t move the needle because those industries employ a small fraction of overall workers. Fixing biases and barriers to promotion in service jobs and trades would do vastly more to fix systemic bias, because those industries simply employ vastly more people across a bigger cross section of the work force. Then there are disparities that better hiring practices can fix, namely correcting the “first and only” problem. Most people just want to fit in, and being the “first and only X” makes that harder. It’s a kind of disparity that exists only because it exists and can be fixed by simply hiring people from diverse backgrounds to achieve a critical mass so that future applicants don’t face that conundrum.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  > who Google hires or doesn’t simply doesn’t move the needle on generational poverty. If it can’t be done in one of the most successful companies on earth, in the richest country, who can? The value in Google trying is greater than just the value to the successful applicants. It might not be much but just throwing up your hands because it’s hard is not helpful.
david38 6y ago
Why do you single out poverty and bias in minority groups? What about say, Appalachia? You think the white people living there were born with a silver spoon in their mouth? Why someone is poor today shouldn’t be rated. It’s not a suffering rating contest. You could be denied a job 50 years ago because of your skin, your accent, etc. It’s far better to just look at where someone is financially and use to determine if they need help. It also prevents divides from popping up. A very good way to get people angry is to tell someone who needs help they are privileged and should shut up because they are either white, male, straight, don’t look poor, etc.

ipaddr 6y ago

You need to fix that at the education level. Offering free top notch education can go a long way.

conception 6y ago
I agree but that ignores people trying to make it today and doesn’t create any “heroes” or mentors for those in education today.
bobthepanda 6y ago
Usually, you need to start super super early. Achievement gaps show up pretty early and only get wider. And I don’t think most companies have the stomach for broad-based improvements to education starting all the way from elementary school or even preschool, particularly when the payoff is going to be when the first wave of kids in preschool make it out of at least undergrad. Of course, the superlocal, balkanized property tax system used to fund schools really doesn’t help things.
malandrew 6y ago
> Offering free top notch education can go a long way I find it strange that people think you can just magically provide a top notch school and things magically correct themselves. How can you completely discount the impact of the parents involvement with their children's educational life? Paraphasing JFK, "Ask not what your school can do for your kid's education, but what you can do for your kid's education". Parents play a huge part in imparting good values in their children and also holding their children accountable for their performance in school. Furthermore, when some kids do poorly that rubs off on all the other kids by lowering the bar and setting bad examples. The parents set bad examples for their kids and then those kids set bad examples for other kids. It's turtles all the way down. "If you want to see the poor remain poor, generation after generation, just keep the standards low in their schools and make excuses for their academic shortcomings and personal misbehavior. But please don't congratulate yourself on your compassion." – Thomas Sowell

rsweeney21 6y ago

The systemic bias I faced was that people assumed I was poor, didn't have resources, wealth or contacts because I am a Native American.

conception 6y ago
You seem very upset that IBM is trying to give jobs to a group that has had a persistent lack of opportunity. Congrats that you’re rich and well connected, but you’re exceptional in this regard.
- nzmsv 6y ago
  Isn't it a bit weird to have someone who is not Native American (you) tell an actual Native American how they should feel and what kind of experiences they are supposed to have had? I would guess that the subset of Native Americans who have a chance of getting the IBM job are more like the OP and less like the ones you are picturing. But no, instead it's "how dare you think our cringeworthy efforts to make you feel included are cringeworthy" :)
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    > Isn't it a bit weird to have someone who is not Native American tell an actual Native American how they should feel. Not. Human experience is universal. Every single human in the planet can understand how other humans feel. We all have experienced similar events before and can provide solid advice about it to fellow humans. "You can't understand me, because I'm ... (native /black / woman / trans / philatelic...) and you aren't" is a very popular opinion. Very popular, very gratifying, and totally wrong.
    - refurb 6y ago
      It's not binary. Sure, there are elements of being human that transcend racial, ethic and cultural differences, but there aspects that are difficult to understand if you didn't grow up in that culture or have extensive exposure.

belorn 6y ago

It is impossible to solve systemic bias by using discrimination. It has never worked in the past despite an untold number of attempts. In a very similar way, violence create violence in very predictable cycles. Like violence, the solution to systemic bias are simple but unattractive. Don't display and rub symbols in people faces. Do not create ambiguous borders between groups of people. Treat each person as individual and avoid generalizations. Add social and economical support based on lack of those resources on an individual level, from the bottom up. The progress towards equally would look very different if people weren't constantly doing the opposite in the belief that this time the symbols will convince the enemy of the wrong doing, the ambiguous borders will work, the generalizations will send the important message, and that top to bottom approach will create a foundation for change.

conception 6y ago
Despite declarations that busing to desegregate schools failed in the 1970s and 1980s, that era actually saw significant improvement in educational equity. When the National Assessment of Educational Progress began in the early 1970s, there was a 53-point gap in reading scores between black and white 17-year-olds. That chasm narrowed to 20 points by 1988. During that time, every region of the country except the Northeast saw steady gains in school integration. In the South in 1968, 78 percent of black children attended schools with almost exclusively minority students; by 1988, only 24 percent did. In the West during that period, the figure declined from 51 percent to 29 percent. But since 1988, when education policy shifted away from desegregation efforts, the reading test score gap has grown — to 26 points in 2012 — with segregated schooling increasing in every region of the country. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- belorn 6y ago
  The case is interesting, through I would compare it to a similar but failed experiment in Sweden where students of got free points in their grade if they applied to a program where there would be a minority. Why did one have some success and the other had none? I would go back to the things I wrote above about what to do and what not to do. Providing free buses to people who live far away from desired schools do not rub the act in the face of people who live near those schools and do not need buses. It might cause a negative side effect that school buses becomes a symbolic proxy for being poor, making those intended to use them less likely to agree to use them, but it extends the option available for those who only have few options to begin with. In contrast, free grade points is much more displayed directly in the face of other fellow students, both to those who get into the program and those who were rejected with similar grades. Free buses does not provide any ambiguous borders or rules once the student is at school. The requirements and expectations of the student is same as any other student. There are few situation where uncertainty and doubt can occur between buss and non-buss student, except maybe for times of heavy snow or road congestion. To my knowledge, when students who depend on buses can't reach the school and thus given a pass to skip school, the other students are given the same pass. If we go back to the Swedish example, requirements and expectations get ambiguous when people get in through other means than merit, causing tensions between those who got in through grades and those who got in through the free points system. Both systems has generalizations, so I would say that a way to improve the desegregation efforts would have been to skip the qualification of race and simply provide the busing to any individual that is below a set amount of wealth and live a distance far away from the desired school in order to need a bus. Such change might have saved it from being abandoned in 1988.

rayiner 6y ago

There are disparities companies can fix through hiring practices and ones they can’t. Systemic bias is one they can’t—who Google hires or doesn’t simply doesn’t move the needle on generational poverty. Even if every professional industry does it, that doesn’t move the needle because those industries employ a small fraction of overall workers. Fixing biases and barriers to promotion in service jobs and trades would do vastly more to fix systemic bias, because those industries simply employ vastly more people across a bigger cross section of the work force. Then there are disparities that better hiring practices can fix, namely correcting the “first and only” problem. Most people just want to fit in, and being the “first and only X” makes that harder. It’s a kind of disparity that exists only because it exists and can be fixed by simply hiring people from diverse backgrounds to achieve a critical mass so that future applicants don’t face that conundrum.

lostlogin 6y ago
> who Google hires or doesn’t simply doesn’t move the needle on generational poverty. If it can’t be done in one of the most successful companies on earth, in the richest country, who can? The value in Google trying is greater than just the value to the successful applicants. It might not be much but just throwing up your hands because it’s hard is not helpful.

david38 6y ago

Why do you single out poverty and bias in minority groups? What about say, Appalachia? You think the white people living there were born with a silver spoon in their mouth? Why someone is poor today shouldn’t be rated. It’s not a suffering rating contest. You could be denied a job 50 years ago because of your skin, your accent, etc. It’s far better to just look at where someone is financially and use to determine if they need help. It also prevents divides from popping up. A very good way to get people angry is to tell someone who needs help they are privileged and should shut up because they are either white, male, straight, don’t look poor, etc.