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I wrote about my experience as a black developer not too long ago [1]. At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then y

I wrote about my experience as a black developer not too long ago [1]. At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then you realize no one else even notices, so it must be something wrong with you. Eventually you ignore it. When someone says something stupid, you rationalize it and move on. After all, you are only just here to do a job. But then you get angry. You are angry at everything. No one understand why you are angry or why you blow things out of proportion. "Hey Carl didn't mean to offend you. It was just that one time." What they don't understand is that you've been hearing the same stupid jokes or comments for 15 years in your career. In June of last summer, multiple companies contacted me to help them do something about diversity in their company. Here is what every company is excited to do: Diversity day, minority day, rainbow flag day, Awareness, BLM profile image, hashtags. Here is what was incredibly hard to do: Hiring more black people. I interviewed hundreds of black people on their behalf, many highly qualified for the jobs. Not more than a 10 candidates got a reply for a follow up. So far I only know of one who was hired. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53180073 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53180073

arenaninja 6y ago
I'm in a similar boat, story time! $current_company runs internal events and makes noise about leadership bonuses being tied to diversity targets. I'm part of $targeted_minority so I usually show to the relevant zoom meetings. There's recurring meetings but no actionable items emerge from these meetings. In a way I'm alright with this because some people need the meetings as a coping mechanism but it doesn't fix the underlying problem; bringing in more $targeted_minority does that. What's missing: data about internal hiring/promotions/referrals showing whether $targeted_minority has a funnel problem. Maybe those reports are above my pay grade at this company. For some anecdata I've made over 30 referrals and not one has been hired. At $previous_company I made 6 referrals that turned into 4 offers and 3 hires (and one of those referrals walked away before being made an offer). Sure, $current_company has higher standards but I'm a bit incredulous at the success rate gap. Maybe one day they will give up and pad the numbers with marketing/HR folk, etc. and pat themselves on the back. Maybe they already do that and I just don't know about it.
- malandrew 6y ago
  > There's recurring meetings but no actionable items emerge from these meetings. I'm curious what items are actionable that also don't run afoul of equal protection (i.e. don't discriminate based on a protected class). My general observation of D&I in the years since it has become a corporate department at many companies is that the D&I department never sets specific and measurable target goals. They say they want to increase representation, but that's where things generally stop. Sub-metrics and sub-goals that would move the needle are conspicuously absent. If you don't have specific and measurable goals, how do you know when you've solved the problem for which the D&I department was originally formed to address?
jimbob45 6y ago
Both whites and blacks get bullied the same amount but when it happens to a black person, it’s racism and is actually taken seriously. I get called dipshit and you get called the N-word. Why race-based bullying has suddenly become considered worse is beyond me.
- frashelaw 6y ago
  seethe, crakkker
- kstrauser 6y ago
  You honestly don't see the difference? Like, you can't think of any historical reasons why the n-word might carry a lot more weight than "dipshit"?
  - asdff 6y ago
    Only a dipshit would make these false equivalencies
  - jimbob45 6y ago
    Name-calling is name-calling. If the mere act of calling you a word makes you shake with anger, then the “sticks and stones” lessons needs to be re-learned.
- atlasunshrugged 6y ago
  Probably because race based bullying is connected 1) to something a person can't really change - their skin color. On the other hand, most people can stop being dipshits. 2) A legacy of people being enslaved, murdered, etc. for the color of their skin.
- arp242 6y ago
  If I get called a dipshit then it's, presumably, because something I did. Perhaps it's completely unjustified, but it's still over something I did. Being called a nigger is very different: it's about who you are and not about what you did. You're not judged for your actions (again, perhaps completely unjustified) but about who you are. It's like being called a "typical dumb American" every time you (allegedly) did something wrong. And while being called that once or twice probably won't faze most, being called that on a regular basis will wear your down eventually.
worker767424 6y ago
> Hiring more black people It's not like there's a large, untapped pool of talented black software engineers. I'm at a large tech company. There was a team I worked with for a big with some really talented people, the sort of team where really smart domain experts go. There was a black guy on it who asked questions showing he wasn't an obviously talented domain expert. I found out he was recruited for coming from an unconventional background and was spending time with different teams. Large tech companies are trying really hard to finds diamonds in the rough, and they're taking chances on people that aren't talented enough. The other issue is blacks are only 13% of the American population. Seattle is only 7%. Now imagine you're an even smaller minority. It's about people not being assholes, not "hiring more x people" because that will always fall short for some group.
- asdff 6y ago
  On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.
  - jimmygrapes 6y ago
    Does culture play no role in this? Why assume race is the primary driver?
    - entee 6y ago
      Surely it does, a culture that makes people feel unwelcome and doesn’t invest in helping them thrive in an environment where they are in the minority definitely plays a role.
      - robin21 6y ago
        How do you explain Asians making up almost half of FAANG startups?
pacman2 6y ago
I am not sure mate. Yes, some things you mention sound annoying and insulting but still. You are an immigrant to the US, got a non US education, you got a job in Silicon Valley and you made it. Honestly, I feel like I received more discrimination as a white, western European in the US than you did. When I was still working in a university lab in the US, it was extremely diverse, with a strong bias/over-representation of Chinese people. But it was still diverse in skin color, heritage, religion, sex or whatever. I never saw any "insensitive comments" there, at least none that were meant in a bad way.
- alienthrowaway 6y ago
  > Honestly, I feel like I received more discrimination as a white, western European in the US than you did. What is the point of bringing this up - is this thread the oppression olympics/"Four Yorkshiremen" of discrimination? Do I have a bit for you: White, western European, you say? Try being an immigrant as a black, African in tech - I'm sure I had it worse than you, at least you people assume you had electricity growing up. As you can imagine, it takes longer than I'd like to establish trust in my engineering chops, and this is an additional consideration when changing jobs.
  - pacman2 6y ago
    You work in tech in the US, a place I had to leave because I did not have a job, shelter, food, health insurance and had to go to China. I have black friends that work in tech, patent law or whatever in the US. Yes, racism exists, no doubt. They told me anecdotes. But I am not very impressed by your complaining. And this is the most polite way I can phrase it. Don't like it in the US? Go to Africa. Good opportunities there. If I had to leave China, Ethiopia would be on of the places I would consider.
    - alienthrowaway 6y ago
      > Yes, racism exists, no doubt...Don't like it in the US? Go to Africa. Amazing. No thanks though - I'm staying put; I have what it takes, even if some people are slow to realize. I didn't get here by being mediocre.
arp242 6y ago
> "Hey Carl didn't mean to offend you. It was just that one time." What they don't understand is that you've been hearing the same stupid jokes or comments for 15 years in your career. Tangentially related: when I got a new tattoo a few years back at an artist I never been before I made some joke that tattoo artists are like dentists: they love to inflict pain on people. I immediately realized that he must have heard the same hundreds of times before, and that I said something pretty bloody stupid. You're up close and personal for a few hours with a stranger; I'm not shy or socially awkward, but I'm also not especially outgoing; just average. Sitting in silence can be awkward for some human psychological reason, and you feel the pressure to say ... something, anything. Reflecting on my own behaviour since this, I've noticed it's in those kind of situations where I say the silliest things: when you feel a pressure to say something but you're not sure what. I think many probably have the same experience to some degree getting a haircut or the like (although haircuts usually don't take 3 hours; or at least, mine don't). I'd certainly like to think I wouldn't be the kind of person who would "the same stupid jokes or comments" that you mentioned – but I can point at least to once case where I've done so. There are probably others that I've forgotten. My point is that it's hard to understand how something is perceived by someone else, especially when their experience is very different from yours, whether that's a tattoo artist or a black programmer. An idea I had a while ago is a platform where people can post personal stories to expand on these kind of things and how it's perceived by them (about a wide variety of topics). "I didn't mean anything by it" comes off as rather weak, but it's my impression it is actually true in quite a few cases, especially these relatively minor ones: many people just don't understand what it is to be in the shoes of another person. You really need to explain this, and just saying "that's racist" isn't enough. P.S. Don't get your ribs tattooed people. Good grief that one hurt so much more than any of the others.
prepend 6y ago
> At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then you realize no one else even notices, so it must be something wrong with you. I think is important to talk about because insensitive comments aren’t always clear. Finding a good way to talk about comments in a healthy way is the difference between me having more peace or stewing. Sometimes people don’t know what they’re saying is offensive, sometimes I misperceive something. An example is that I was in a staff meeting and one of the seniors said “Paying for itself in spades...” and another developer’s face just sunk and he was clearly upset but the senior didn’t notice. Dev2 went to a colleague to talk and explained how he was really upset because Dev1 uses this term quite a bit and that it’s offensive. Colleague pulled up some info on the origins of the term [0] and how it has nothing to do with race. If Dev2 hadn’t talked about it, then they would have continued thinking that Dev1 was saying racist things. Obviously, the particulars of situations will vary and there are jerks. But given that we work with lots of different cultures, it’s good to try to find a way to confront these offenses in a way that’s not exhausting and can help build team relationships. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade
- octokatt 6y ago
  The trick to what happened in your example is that Dev2 was able to find someone in the office (Colleague) they trusted to talk about the situation. In some organizations I’ve been in, he could have talked to Dev3, who tells them to “not be so sensitive”, then tells other devs about how Dev2 played the race card. Dev3 is more common than Colleague. Hell, Dev1 being an idiot and not learning to maybe adjust his language to be inclusive, and maybe read a book about race, is less common than Colleague.
  - prepend 6y ago
    Yes, and this is what makes it so hard and sort of a wicked problem. This is a “best case scenario” but there’s lots of other worse outcomes like the one you mention, or if dev2 reported Dev1 for a microaggression. I think the important, and hard part, is to have trust and existing relationships where people can discuss these types of scenarios. Also my perception is that Dev1 was not an idiot and did not need to do anything for his language and the moral here is that Dev2 was able to learn more context around Dev1’s speech so they understood that there was nothing racial about it. We all could have read lots of books about race and Dev1’s statement should not have changed. But that doesn’t mean that Dev3 is right. I think we want to train and improve Dev3s so they become more like Colleague. And we also want to build more relationships like between Dev2 and Colleague so that Dev2 could talk to Dev1 directly. I don’t like advice that people should be more thick skinned, because for every scenario where the misunderstanding is on the part of Dev2 there are lots of scenarios where the statement is racist. Maybe the heuristic is that we should be more curious before judging.

arenaninja 6y ago

I'm in a similar boat, story time! $current_company runs internal events and makes noise about leadership bonuses being tied to diversity targets. I'm part of $targeted_minority so I usually show to the relevant zoom meetings. There's recurring meetings but no actionable items emerge from these meetings. In a way I'm alright with this because some people need the meetings as a coping mechanism but it doesn't fix the underlying problem; bringing in more $targeted_minority does that. What's missing: data about internal hiring/promotions/referrals showing whether $targeted_minority has a funnel problem. Maybe those reports are above my pay grade at this company. For some anecdata I've made over 30 referrals and not one has been hired. At $previous_company I made 6 referrals that turned into 4 offers and 3 hires (and one of those referrals walked away before being made an offer). Sure, $current_company has higher standards but I'm a bit incredulous at the success rate gap. Maybe one day they will give up and pad the numbers with marketing/HR folk, etc. and pat themselves on the back. Maybe they already do that and I just don't know about it.

malandrew 6y ago
> There's recurring meetings but no actionable items emerge from these meetings. I'm curious what items are actionable that also don't run afoul of equal protection (i.e. don't discriminate based on a protected class). My general observation of D&I in the years since it has become a corporate department at many companies is that the D&I department never sets specific and measurable target goals. They say they want to increase representation, but that's where things generally stop. Sub-metrics and sub-goals that would move the needle are conspicuously absent. If you don't have specific and measurable goals, how do you know when you've solved the problem for which the D&I department was originally formed to address?

jimbob45 6y ago

Both whites and blacks get bullied the same amount but when it happens to a black person, it’s racism and is actually taken seriously. I get called dipshit and you get called the N-word. Why race-based bullying has suddenly become considered worse is beyond me.

frashelaw 6y ago
seethe, crakkker
kstrauser 6y ago
You honestly don't see the difference? Like, you can't think of any historical reasons why the n-word might carry a lot more weight than "dipshit"?
- asdff 6y ago
  Only a dipshit would make these false equivalencies
- jimbob45 6y ago
  Name-calling is name-calling. If the mere act of calling you a word makes you shake with anger, then the “sticks and stones” lessons needs to be re-learned.
atlasunshrugged 6y ago
Probably because race based bullying is connected 1) to something a person can't really change - their skin color. On the other hand, most people can stop being dipshits. 2) A legacy of people being enslaved, murdered, etc. for the color of their skin.
arp242 6y ago
If I get called a dipshit then it's, presumably, because something I did. Perhaps it's completely unjustified, but it's still over something I did. Being called a nigger is very different: it's about who you are and not about what you did. You're not judged for your actions (again, perhaps completely unjustified) but about who you are. It's like being called a "typical dumb American" every time you (allegedly) did something wrong. And while being called that once or twice probably won't faze most, being called that on a regular basis will wear your down eventually.

worker767424 6y ago

> Hiring more black people It's not like there's a large, untapped pool of talented black software engineers. I'm at a large tech company. There was a team I worked with for a big with some really talented people, the sort of team where really smart domain experts go. There was a black guy on it who asked questions showing he wasn't an obviously talented domain expert. I found out he was recruited for coming from an unconventional background and was spending time with different teams. Large tech companies are trying really hard to finds diamonds in the rough, and they're taking chances on people that aren't talented enough. The other issue is blacks are only 13% of the American population. Seattle is only 7%. Now imagine you're an even smaller minority. It's about people not being assholes, not "hiring more x people" because that will always fall short for some group.

asdff 6y ago
On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.
- jimmygrapes 6y ago
  Does culture play no role in this? Why assume race is the primary driver?
  - entee 6y ago
    Surely it does, a culture that makes people feel unwelcome and doesn’t invest in helping them thrive in an environment where they are in the minority definitely plays a role.
    - robin21 6y ago
      How do you explain Asians making up almost half of FAANG startups?

pacman2 6y ago

I am not sure mate. Yes, some things you mention sound annoying and insulting but still. You are an immigrant to the US, got a non US education, you got a job in Silicon Valley and you made it. Honestly, I feel like I received more discrimination as a white, western European in the US than you did. When I was still working in a university lab in the US, it was extremely diverse, with a strong bias/over-representation of Chinese people. But it was still diverse in skin color, heritage, religion, sex or whatever. I never saw any "insensitive comments" there, at least none that were meant in a bad way.

alienthrowaway 6y ago
> Honestly, I feel like I received more discrimination as a white, western European in the US than you did. What is the point of bringing this up - is this thread the oppression olympics/"Four Yorkshiremen" of discrimination? Do I have a bit for you: White, western European, you say? Try being an immigrant as a black, African in tech - I'm sure I had it worse than you, at least you people assume you had electricity growing up. As you can imagine, it takes longer than I'd like to establish trust in my engineering chops, and this is an additional consideration when changing jobs.
- pacman2 6y ago
  You work in tech in the US, a place I had to leave because I did not have a job, shelter, food, health insurance and had to go to China. I have black friends that work in tech, patent law or whatever in the US. Yes, racism exists, no doubt. They told me anecdotes. But I am not very impressed by your complaining. And this is the most polite way I can phrase it. Don't like it in the US? Go to Africa. Good opportunities there. If I had to leave China, Ethiopia would be on of the places I would consider.
  - alienthrowaway 6y ago
    > Yes, racism exists, no doubt...Don't like it in the US? Go to Africa. Amazing. No thanks though - I'm staying put; I have what it takes, even if some people are slow to realize. I didn't get here by being mediocre.

arp242 6y ago

> "Hey Carl didn't mean to offend you. It was just that one time." What they don't understand is that you've been hearing the same stupid jokes or comments for 15 years in your career. Tangentially related: when I got a new tattoo a few years back at an artist I never been before I made some joke that tattoo artists are like dentists: they love to inflict pain on people. I immediately realized that he must have heard the same hundreds of times before, and that I said something pretty bloody stupid. You're up close and personal for a few hours with a stranger; I'm not shy or socially awkward, but I'm also not especially outgoing; just average. Sitting in silence can be awkward for some human psychological reason, and you feel the pressure to say ... something, anything. Reflecting on my own behaviour since this, I've noticed it's in those kind of situations where I say the silliest things: when you feel a pressure to say something but you're not sure what. I think many probably have the same experience to some degree getting a haircut or the like (although haircuts usually don't take 3 hours; or at least, mine don't). I'd certainly like to think I wouldn't be the kind of person who would "the same stupid jokes or comments" that you mentioned – but I can point at least to once case where I've done so. There are probably others that I've forgotten. My point is that it's hard to understand how something is perceived by someone else, especially when their experience is very different from yours, whether that's a tattoo artist or a black programmer. An idea I had a while ago is a platform where people can post personal stories to expand on these kind of things and how it's perceived by them (about a wide variety of topics). "I didn't mean anything by it" comes off as rather weak, but it's my impression it is actually true in quite a few cases, especially these relatively minor ones: many people just don't understand what it is to be in the shoes of another person. You really need to explain this, and just saying "that's racist" isn't enough. P.S. Don't get your ribs tattooed people. Good grief that one hurt so much more than any of the others.

prepend 6y ago

> At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then you realize no one else even notices, so it must be something wrong with you. I think is important to talk about because insensitive comments aren’t always clear. Finding a good way to talk about comments in a healthy way is the difference between me having more peace or stewing. Sometimes people don’t know what they’re saying is offensive, sometimes I misperceive something. An example is that I was in a staff meeting and one of the seniors said “Paying for itself in spades...” and another developer’s face just sunk and he was clearly upset but the senior didn’t notice. Dev2 went to a colleague to talk and explained how he was really upset because Dev1 uses this term quite a bit and that it’s offensive. Colleague pulled up some info on the origins of the term [0] and how it has nothing to do with race. If Dev2 hadn’t talked about it, then they would have continued thinking that Dev1 was saying racist things. Obviously, the particulars of situations will vary and there are jerks. But given that we work with lots of different cultures, it’s good to try to find a way to confront these offenses in a way that’s not exhausting and can help build team relationships. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade

octokatt 6y ago
The trick to what happened in your example is that Dev2 was able to find someone in the office (Colleague) they trusted to talk about the situation. In some organizations I’ve been in, he could have talked to Dev3, who tells them to “not be so sensitive”, then tells other devs about how Dev2 played the race card. Dev3 is more common than Colleague. Hell, Dev1 being an idiot and not learning to maybe adjust his language to be inclusive, and maybe read a book about race, is less common than Colleague.
- prepend 6y ago
  Yes, and this is what makes it so hard and sort of a wicked problem. This is a “best case scenario” but there’s lots of other worse outcomes like the one you mention, or if dev2 reported Dev1 for a microaggression. I think the important, and hard part, is to have trust and existing relationships where people can discuss these types of scenarios. Also my perception is that Dev1 was not an idiot and did not need to do anything for his language and the moral here is that Dev2 was able to learn more context around Dev1’s speech so they understood that there was nothing racial about it. We all could have read lots of books about race and Dev1’s statement should not have changed. But that doesn’t mean that Dev3 is right. I think we want to train and improve Dev3s so they become more like Colleague. And we also want to build more relationships like between Dev2 and Colleague so that Dev2 could talk to Dev1 directly. I don’t like advice that people should be more thick skinned, because for every scenario where the misunderstanding is on the part of Dev2 there are lots of scenarios where the statement is racist. Maybe the heuristic is that we should be more curious before judging.