3 ms·

"lack of diversity actually works to the detriment of tech companies. " Tech companies are diverse, more so than most companies. You mean to say 'not the righ

by jariel 6y ago

"lack of diversity actually works to the detriment of tech companies. " Tech companies are diverse, more so than most companies. You mean to say 'not the right kind of diverse'. The ridiculous, Monty Python conversation that nobody wants to have, is that since White Americans are slightly underrepresented, but Asian Americans are about 600% over-represented ... which means getting the 'right' kind of diversity literally means hiring less people of colour, specifically Asians, which seems really unfair to them for very obvious reasons. It's funny and Orwellian at the same time that the problem exists out in the open, but nobody dare speak a word of it. These are the kinds of problems that Cults and the Bad Kinds of religions have. The problem with the 'rule' as you describe it is it may decrease diversity in any sense. There is no data to support the fact that African Americans and Latino Americans are showing up in the pipelines in sufficient the right qualifications to 'balance out' diversity. The data actually works the other way - the ethnic and gender composition of people hired basically is a good reflection of the pipeline. I understand we can do better than just looking at the pipeline, but from any specific, direct hiring perspective, the pipeline is it. Within the pragmatic but admittedly narrow confines of 'the pipeline' - any company is going to be hard pressed to hire considerably more of the 'right race' of people. It's not going to matter that much how you do interviews. 'The Solution' is going to have to be 1) getting more kids from different backgrounds interested in tech at an early age and into the pipeline and 2) accepting that 'diversity' is an ideology on some level, and that just because you have people of some group, doesn't necessarily imply negative or racist behaviours. Nobody will ever state the later in public, but it's possible we come to terms with it.

handoflixue 6y ago
Can you cite sources for "more diverse"? I'm curious if you mean "higher percentage of POC" or "numerous different minorities are all represented"? A company composed entirely of 30-something black men is 100% POC, but it's still not actually that diverse. I definitely agree that it's weird how much we focus on holding tech companies "accountable" for diversity when they're fundamentally working with whatever pipeline society gives them.
- jariel 6y ago
  By 'diverse' I meant 'PoC' mostly. Tech, particularly in the Valley has technically an under representation of non-PoC. (I myself have worked at companies that were 95% Asian, being almost the only 'White Guy'). The reason 'tech' is highlighted is ironically that's were the 'woke folk' are. You can go the Midwest Cracker Co. and find 90% White and people are not too worried about it, except for in a kind of 'corporate optics' way. It's the general employees of tech, tech press etc. that are fairly assertive in promoting issues of diversity because it's what they care about. A company has to have a certain profile in order for it to be newsworthy. CNN, even if they wanted to, can't really run an article on the Midwest Cracker Co. but they can for Twitter because it has public resonance.
usaar333 6y ago
Traditionally, tech diversity referred to gender diversity, in which case, yes tech companies (especially engineering) are very skewed for a white collar position. Note that this post is about gender diversity. If you attempt to extend it to ethnicity (which this post is not about), this gets all really arbitrary, which is where your point comes in. The cause of underlying skews is then a different discussion altogether.
- jariel 6y ago
  "Traditionally, tech diversity referred to gender diversity" This is definitely not true. " extend it to ethnicity ... gets all really arbitrary " I don't think so, the issues are very similar.
  - usaar333 6y ago
    Ethnic diversity is relatively new (it was rarely discussed much 10 years ago compared to gender, at least as far as goal settings was concerned) -- and how is it not arbitrary? The "major groups" used are entirely arbitrary (yes, they are EEOC definitions generally, but those are arbitrary and there's no particular reason they should be relevant for tech). It's also an arbitrary choice whether to consider group intersectionality or not. (e.g. Are Asian women underrepresented in tech?)
aeoleonn 6y ago
What’s funny to me is that people are only complaining about diversity in the US and Europe. Although I have seen a few articles about class based diversity in Latin America and India. Maybe I am missing something but I don’t see complaints about diversity in Arabia, Persia, African Regions, Asian regions. Yet there are historic multi-ethnic conflicts in most of not all of these areas. Take the Hausa, Fula, Igbo, and Yoruba of Nigeria for example, as an example. Ultimately, dividing people and calling it “diversity” resembles a divide and conquer tactic for reducing the cohesion of a society, making it easier to control (via narratives and reducing my inter-group trust compared to some central, approved authority), in my view. Check out Ryan Long for a humorous example: “When Racists and Woke Agree On Everything”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg
- jariel 6y ago
  Diversity in the West basically means 'Not Just White People' due to historical power asymmetries, and the fact that at least in the 'New World', 'race' is not supposed to be a defining feature of national identity, or at least for some. It's slightly more of a paradox outside the New World because ethnicity and nationality are really tightly intertwined.
  - aeoleonn 6y ago
    Power asymmetries are not always and not simply the result of a lack of "diversity". Power asymmetry can be the result of a variety of interactions between a variety of factors-- not just "lack of diversity". For example, a power asymmetry might result from information asymmetry, and information acquisition does not necessarily require [political/economic] power. Also, a power asymmetry might result from a competency or cultural asymmetry (such as "need for achievement" *), which are also not necessarily due to a "lack of diversity". Competency or cultural asymmetry can result from cultural or sociological tendencies of a given group to promote certain activities for their particularly culturally nuanced view of "status". Power can also be a geographical asymmetry. And a demographic one, in terms of political economics. * "Need for achievement (N-Ach) is an individual's desire for significant accomplishment, mastering of skills, control, or high standards. The term was first used by Henry Murray and associated with a range of actions. These include: "intense, prolonged and repeated efforts to accomplish something difficult." . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need_for_achievement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need_for_achievement

by jariel 6y ago

handoflixue 6y ago

Can you cite sources for "more diverse"? I'm curious if you mean "higher percentage of POC" or "numerous different minorities are all represented"? A company composed entirely of 30-something black men is 100% POC, but it's still not actually that diverse. I definitely agree that it's weird how much we focus on holding tech companies "accountable" for diversity when they're fundamentally working with whatever pipeline society gives them.

jariel 6y ago
By 'diverse' I meant 'PoC' mostly. Tech, particularly in the Valley has technically an under representation of non-PoC. (I myself have worked at companies that were 95% Asian, being almost the only 'White Guy'). The reason 'tech' is highlighted is ironically that's were the 'woke folk' are. You can go the Midwest Cracker Co. and find 90% White and people are not too worried about it, except for in a kind of 'corporate optics' way. It's the general employees of tech, tech press etc. that are fairly assertive in promoting issues of diversity because it's what they care about. A company has to have a certain profile in order for it to be newsworthy. CNN, even if they wanted to, can't really run an article on the Midwest Cracker Co. but they can for Twitter because it has public resonance.

usaar333 6y ago

Traditionally, tech diversity referred to gender diversity, in which case, yes tech companies (especially engineering) are very skewed for a white collar position. Note that this post is about gender diversity. If you attempt to extend it to ethnicity (which this post is not about), this gets all really arbitrary, which is where your point comes in. The cause of underlying skews is then a different discussion altogether.

jariel 6y ago
"Traditionally, tech diversity referred to gender diversity" This is definitely not true. " extend it to ethnicity ... gets all really arbitrary " I don't think so, the issues are very similar.
- usaar333 6y ago
  Ethnic diversity is relatively new (it was rarely discussed much 10 years ago compared to gender, at least as far as goal settings was concerned) -- and how is it not arbitrary? The "major groups" used are entirely arbitrary (yes, they are EEOC definitions generally, but those are arbitrary and there's no particular reason they should be relevant for tech). It's also an arbitrary choice whether to consider group intersectionality or not. (e.g. Are Asian women underrepresented in tech?)

aeoleonn 6y ago

What’s funny to me is that people are only complaining about diversity in the US and Europe. Although I have seen a few articles about class based diversity in Latin America and India. Maybe I am missing something but I don’t see complaints about diversity in Arabia, Persia, African Regions, Asian regions. Yet there are historic multi-ethnic conflicts in most of not all of these areas. Take the Hausa, Fula, Igbo, and Yoruba of Nigeria for example, as an example. Ultimately, dividing people and calling it “diversity” resembles a divide and conquer tactic for reducing the cohesion of a society, making it easier to control (via narratives and reducing my inter-group trust compared to some central, approved authority), in my view. Check out Ryan Long for a humorous example: “When Racists and Woke Agree On Everything”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg

jariel 6y ago
Diversity in the West basically means 'Not Just White People' due to historical power asymmetries, and the fact that at least in the 'New World', 'race' is not supposed to be a defining feature of national identity, or at least for some. It's slightly more of a paradox outside the New World because ethnicity and nationality are really tightly intertwined.
- aeoleonn 6y ago
  Power asymmetries are not always and not simply the result of a lack of "diversity". Power asymmetry can be the result of a variety of interactions between a variety of factors-- not just "lack of diversity". For example, a power asymmetry might result from information asymmetry, and information acquisition does not necessarily require [political/economic] power. Also, a power asymmetry might result from a competency or cultural asymmetry (such as "need for achievement" *), which are also not necessarily due to a "lack of diversity". Competency or cultural asymmetry can result from cultural or sociological tendencies of a given group to promote certain activities for their particularly culturally nuanced view of "status". Power can also be a geographical asymmetry. And a demographic one, in terms of political economics. * "Need for achievement (N-Ach) is an individual's desire for significant accomplishment, mastering of skills, control, or high standards. The term was first used by Henry Murray and associated with a range of actions. These include: "intense, prolonged and repeated efforts to accomplish something difficult." . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need_for_achievement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need_for_achievement