9 ms·

Hypothesis: general anti-virals (i.e. something that kills most viruses, rather than being fine-tuned to a specific virus) will have the unintended consequence

Hypothesis: general anti-virals (i.e. something that kills most viruses, rather than being fine-tuned to a specific virus) will have the unintended consequence of killing viruses which prey on bacteria in our gut microbiome. That, in turn, will alter the balance of bacteria in our gut, leading to (slow-to-appear) major health issues. All somewhat similar to the autoimmune and allergic issues resulting from overuse of antibiotics. Just a hypothesis. But the number of viruses in the gut, the vast majority of which we know nothing about, does reveal an awful lot of room for unintended consequences.

thebean11 6y ago
That's assuming that these species won't just be eventually reintroduced through food, air, human interaction etc.
- ddingus 6y ago
  I had this happen with a strong antibiotic and a longer than usual course. My gut has seen a lot from various parts of the world. It's like starting over. The more places I revisit, the better things have become. But yeah, significant changes. Ahem... lots of irregularity, as if many foods were new. (and in a sense they were) The reintroduction idea is valid IMHO, based on some of my own experiences.
  - weaksauce 6y ago
    I'm a fan of having some lacto fermented foods in my diet on the regular. seems to help with promoting a nice gut biome but that's just an anecdote. worst case kombucha and kimchi are tasty.
    - ddingus 6y ago
      I do this too, though I do not find either of the k's particularly tasty.
      - weaksauce 6y ago
        I am a big fan of sour things so maybe that's why I like the taste. homemade kimchi is a lot tastier than the commercial stuff too.
        ddingus 6y ago
        Interesting. I will retry the k's when I have the opportunity.
        weaksauce 6y ago
        Goodluck! The recipe that I use is basically this: https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/tongbaechu-kimchi https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/tongbaechu-kimchi I tend to put more of the carrots, onions, and daikon in though as I like that crunch. I don't put in the harder to find ingredients and tend to ferment it a little over a week in a big vessel and then store it in smaller mason jars in the fridge. making carbon dioxide with vinegar and baking soda and then pouring it(just the invisible co2 though!!) over the ferment vessel has been flawless for my ferments. in any event controlled rot is fun... brewing your own kombucha is even easier too... basically making a sweet tea and pouring in a bottle of unflavored and still alive kombucha and it will make it on its own.
LinuxBender 6y ago
A bit more than a hypothesis. There are numerous scientific studies on nih.gov about this topic. I don't have their links handy, but I have run across them when researching gut health. I find it is easiest to search their site using google. e.g. "site:nih.gov some topic" in google works best with them.
Zenst 6y ago
An experience I had relating to medications and the stomach: I had salmonella food poisoning, week later I'm better and then I get a call from doctor who had got tests back saying I had salmonella and was insistent I take this medication ciproxin. I questioned it as was feeling better. Anyhow took the medication that turned out to be broad-spectrum and it killed all the bacteria et all in my stomach. Week of shitting like a baby (green) and was worst that second week and had gone back to work, yet ended up off ill again. Since then had issues with stomach, mood, even tendons and few other aspects and went from sporty type to not being able to do any sports.
- castlecrasher2 6y ago
  >went from sporty type to not being able to do any sports Can you elaborate on this? I'm curious as to the general details.
  - Zenst 6y ago
    Sure, used to do kendo and professional swimming and was doing paint-ball tournament level. That all ended due to tendon issues, and also much lowered energy levels.
- Darkharbourzz 6y ago
  Have you researched fecal transplants? I've seen some evidence to suggest they can restore a microbiome after e.g. chemotherapy or broad-spec antibiotics.
  - Zenst 6y ago
    I became aware of them watching a documentary upon Hitler many years ago - he was a fan of them apparently. Though wasn't aware at the time and quick dig shows it's not something the health service in the UK offer even today. Alas I can't afford private health care and not had great experiences with doctors, indeed any dealing been disaster on some level that I won't go thru them as it will just depress the hell out of me though the one when the a doctor said the stitches I'd had done was the worst job he'd seen in his entire life and he was a field medic during WW2, kinda gives an idea. But certainly as a treatment - it has merit and wished was explored more. Just wished known about it at the time.
NotSammyHagar 6y ago
Almost certainly the case, for the well known issue you mention of antibiotics. A more interesting question to me is when we'll be replenishing people's viral biome and bacterial one too. There are these recent studies trying to fix intestinal issues by taking one person's ... well crap and sharing it with others to replenish their biome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant
UncleOxidant 6y ago
Do we have any general anti-virals? Seems like the few anti-virals we do have are pretty targetted towards certain types of viruses.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- rossdavidh 6y ago
  Up until this point, we have mostly just had broad-spectrum antibiotics, not antivirals. But, partly because of You Know What, they are getting a lot more attention lately: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/molnupiravir-last-of-the-small-molecule-coronavirus-hopes https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/mo...
- majkinetor 6y ago
  Vitamin C seems to be what most animals on this planet use as general anti-viral. It also seems it works in humans in mega dozes and/or IV. In any case "general antiviral" seems to be even worst thing then general antibiotic. Most of bacteria / viruses are commensal, you don't really want to disturb that. For example, bacteriophage viruses are now known to handle some of the 100% resistant bacteria in a matter of days. IMO, the system is so complex that you should only support the crew that know how to handle that - i.e. your immune system - by providing resources they need (vitamins etc.) and avoid things detrimental for them (sugar, tonsillectomy etc.).
refurb 6y ago
Anti-virals aren't like anti-biotics, we don't have great general purpose antivirals. Adamantine, interferons, etc are used generally, but their efficacy is pretty poor. That's why hepatitis C was so difficult to treat. It required a very specific molecule to inhibit an enzyme specific to hepatitis C.
- rossdavidh 6y ago
  The situation with general purpose antivirals appears to be about to change, though: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/molnupiravir-last-of-the-small-molecule-coronavirus-hopes https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/mo...
AshWolfy 6y ago
This is absolutely true, which is why its usually recommended to take probiotics when you have to take antibiotics
dzhiurgis 6y ago
> similar to the autoimmune and allergic issues resulting from overuse of antibiotics Is this hypothesis too or a fact?
- rossdavidh 6y ago
  Well that is also an hypothesis but with a lot more data to back it up than my idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis
thepangolino 6y ago
Something like this already happen with c. Difficile taking over the gut and causing all sorts of troubles during antibiotic treatments.

thebean11 6y ago

That's assuming that these species won't just be eventually reintroduced through food, air, human interaction etc.

ddingus 6y ago
I had this happen with a strong antibiotic and a longer than usual course. My gut has seen a lot from various parts of the world. It's like starting over. The more places I revisit, the better things have become. But yeah, significant changes. Ahem... lots of irregularity, as if many foods were new. (and in a sense they were) The reintroduction idea is valid IMHO, based on some of my own experiences.
- weaksauce 6y ago
  I'm a fan of having some lacto fermented foods in my diet on the regular. seems to help with promoting a nice gut biome but that's just an anecdote. worst case kombucha and kimchi are tasty.
  - ddingus 6y ago
    I do this too, though I do not find either of the k's particularly tasty.
    - weaksauce 6y ago
      I am a big fan of sour things so maybe that's why I like the taste. homemade kimchi is a lot tastier than the commercial stuff too.
      - ddingus 6y ago
        Interesting. I will retry the k's when I have the opportunity.
        weaksauce 6y ago
        Goodluck! The recipe that I use is basically this: https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/tongbaechu-kimchi https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/tongbaechu-kimchi I tend to put more of the carrots, onions, and daikon in though as I like that crunch. I don't put in the harder to find ingredients and tend to ferment it a little over a week in a big vessel and then store it in smaller mason jars in the fridge. making carbon dioxide with vinegar and baking soda and then pouring it(just the invisible co2 though!!) over the ferment vessel has been flawless for my ferments. in any event controlled rot is fun... brewing your own kombucha is even easier too... basically making a sweet tea and pouring in a bottle of unflavored and still alive kombucha and it will make it on its own.

LinuxBender 6y ago

A bit more than a hypothesis. There are numerous scientific studies on nih.gov about this topic. I don't have their links handy, but I have run across them when researching gut health. I find it is easiest to search their site using google. e.g. "site:nih.gov some topic" in google works best with them.

Zenst 6y ago

An experience I had relating to medications and the stomach: I had salmonella food poisoning, week later I'm better and then I get a call from doctor who had got tests back saying I had salmonella and was insistent I take this medication ciproxin. I questioned it as was feeling better. Anyhow took the medication that turned out to be broad-spectrum and it killed all the bacteria et all in my stomach. Week of shitting like a baby (green) and was worst that second week and had gone back to work, yet ended up off ill again. Since then had issues with stomach, mood, even tendons and few other aspects and went from sporty type to not being able to do any sports.

castlecrasher2 6y ago
>went from sporty type to not being able to do any sports Can you elaborate on this? I'm curious as to the general details.
- Zenst 6y ago
  Sure, used to do kendo and professional swimming and was doing paint-ball tournament level. That all ended due to tendon issues, and also much lowered energy levels.
Darkharbourzz 6y ago
Have you researched fecal transplants? I've seen some evidence to suggest they can restore a microbiome after e.g. chemotherapy or broad-spec antibiotics.
- Zenst 6y ago
  I became aware of them watching a documentary upon Hitler many years ago - he was a fan of them apparently. Though wasn't aware at the time and quick dig shows it's not something the health service in the UK offer even today. Alas I can't afford private health care and not had great experiences with doctors, indeed any dealing been disaster on some level that I won't go thru them as it will just depress the hell out of me though the one when the a doctor said the stitches I'd had done was the worst job he'd seen in his entire life and he was a field medic during WW2, kinda gives an idea. But certainly as a treatment - it has merit and wished was explored more. Just wished known about it at the time.

NotSammyHagar 6y ago

Almost certainly the case, for the well known issue you mention of antibiotics. A more interesting question to me is when we'll be replenishing people's viral biome and bacterial one too. There are these recent studies trying to fix intestinal issues by taking one person's ... well crap and sharing it with others to replenish their biome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant

UncleOxidant 6y ago

Do we have any general anti-virals? Seems like the few anti-virals we do have are pretty targetted towards certain types of viruses.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rossdavidh 6y ago
Up until this point, we have mostly just had broad-spectrum antibiotics, not antivirals. But, partly because of You Know What, they are getting a lot more attention lately: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/molnupiravir-last-of-the-small-molecule-coronavirus-hopes https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/mo...
majkinetor 6y ago
Vitamin C seems to be what most animals on this planet use as general anti-viral. It also seems it works in humans in mega dozes and/or IV. In any case "general antiviral" seems to be even worst thing then general antibiotic. Most of bacteria / viruses are commensal, you don't really want to disturb that. For example, bacteriophage viruses are now known to handle some of the 100% resistant bacteria in a matter of days. IMO, the system is so complex that you should only support the crew that know how to handle that - i.e. your immune system - by providing resources they need (vitamins etc.) and avoid things detrimental for them (sugar, tonsillectomy etc.).

refurb 6y ago

Anti-virals aren't like anti-biotics, we don't have great general purpose antivirals. Adamantine, interferons, etc are used generally, but their efficacy is pretty poor. That's why hepatitis C was so difficult to treat. It required a very specific molecule to inhibit an enzyme specific to hepatitis C.

rossdavidh 6y ago
The situation with general purpose antivirals appears to be about to change, though: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/molnupiravir-last-of-the-small-molecule-coronavirus-hopes https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/mo...

AshWolfy 6y ago

This is absolutely true, which is why its usually recommended to take probiotics when you have to take antibiotics

dzhiurgis 6y ago

> similar to the autoimmune and allergic issues resulting from overuse of antibiotics Is this hypothesis too or a fact?

rossdavidh 6y ago
Well that is also an hypothesis but with a lot more data to back it up than my idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

thepangolino 6y ago

Something like this already happen with c. Difficile taking over the gut and causing all sorts of troubles during antibiotic treatments.