4 ms·

Please be considerate in how you phrase the apartheid comparison. Many, myself include, feel it reeks of anti-semitism. I also don't think this is a helpful wa

Please be considerate in how you phrase the apartheid comparison. Many, myself include, feel it reeks of anti-semitism. I also don't think this is a helpful way of phrasing your point that we should consider the downstream carrots and sticks of our positions.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
Well anyone who ever visited the Israeli Palestinian border or ever had to go through a border crossing security check would see how obviously it is apartheid. I'm sorry it hurts your feelings but real people are losing their homes and livelihoods every day to ever increasing Israeli settlement.
- whearyou 6y ago
  I've visited it numerous times. The label on it doesn't make it ok or not. The issue is the circumstances there don't meet the factual criterion of apartheid. That's not a question of feelings. The fact the apartheid label is applied here while it is not emphasized or even applied to non-Jewish countries is a double standard. That fits the definition of anti-semitism.
  - notsureaboutpg 6y ago
    They do meet the factual definition whether you like it or not. If I'm Palestinian, I live my life completely according to the rules of Israel (because of the blockade and checkpoints and control of the territory). As a Palestinian, I also cannot vote in Israel and will never be granted the ability to vote in Israel, in order to preserve the ethnic majority of Israel. As a Palestinian I can also have my home taken away from me to make room for Israeli settlers. That's apartheid.
    - whearyou 6y ago
      You are not a citizen of Israel and live in land you claim for a totally separate country. That is, literally and factually, not apartheid.
bjourne 6y ago
I'm sorry that you feel that way. But "apartheid" is the nomenclature adopted by well-known human rights organizations, (https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is...), by the Palestinians themselves (https://bdsmovement.net/apartheid-free-zones https://bdsmovement.net/apartheid-free-zones), and by one of my personal heroes, Desmond Tutu (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm) to describe Israel. I have also visited the West Bank many times and what I saw with my own eyes suggests to me that the apartheid-label absolutely fits. The point of calling Israel an apartheid state is of course not to claim that Israel is identical to what South Africa was. The point is to emphasize that it is the same racist and supremacist ideology that permeates both systems. In South Africa, you had white people (Boers) dominating and oppressing colored people. In Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, you have Jews dominating and oppressing Palestinians.
- fortran77 6y ago
  We get it. You don't like Jews. But what does this have to do with power transmission lines?
- dagav 6y ago
  The Palestinians agreed in the Oslo Accords t govern themselves. They don't vote in Israeli elections, and Israelis don't vote in their elections (if they had any).
- whearyou 6y ago
  “The same racist and supremacist ideology” that is factually incorrect
  - notsureaboutpg 6y ago
    Why? Israel denies citizenship, voting rights, and equal rights to Palestinians (who still have to live according to the law Israeli citizens decide because Israel controls their territory). And the entire basis for doing this is that Jewish people must be the ethnic majority in Israel. It's literally apartheid on ethnic lines.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

Well anyone who ever visited the Israeli Palestinian border or ever had to go through a border crossing security check would see how obviously it is apartheid. I'm sorry it hurts your feelings but real people are losing their homes and livelihoods every day to ever increasing Israeli settlement.

whearyou 6y ago
I've visited it numerous times. The label on it doesn't make it ok or not. The issue is the circumstances there don't meet the factual criterion of apartheid. That's not a question of feelings. The fact the apartheid label is applied here while it is not emphasized or even applied to non-Jewish countries is a double standard. That fits the definition of anti-semitism.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  They do meet the factual definition whether you like it or not. If I'm Palestinian, I live my life completely according to the rules of Israel (because of the blockade and checkpoints and control of the territory). As a Palestinian, I also cannot vote in Israel and will never be granted the ability to vote in Israel, in order to preserve the ethnic majority of Israel. As a Palestinian I can also have my home taken away from me to make room for Israeli settlers. That's apartheid.
  - whearyou 6y ago
    You are not a citizen of Israel and live in land you claim for a totally separate country. That is, literally and factually, not apartheid.

bjourne 6y ago

I'm sorry that you feel that way. But "apartheid" is the nomenclature adopted by well-known human rights organizations, (https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is...), by the Palestinians themselves (https://bdsmovement.net/apartheid-free-zones https://bdsmovement.net/apartheid-free-zones), and by one of my personal heroes, Desmond Tutu (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm) to describe Israel. I have also visited the West Bank many times and what I saw with my own eyes suggests to me that the apartheid-label absolutely fits. The point of calling Israel an apartheid state is of course not to claim that Israel is identical to what South Africa was. The point is to emphasize that it is the same racist and supremacist ideology that permeates both systems. In South Africa, you had white people (Boers) dominating and oppressing colored people. In Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, you have Jews dominating and oppressing Palestinians.

fortran77 6y ago
We get it. You don't like Jews. But what does this have to do with power transmission lines?
dagav 6y ago
The Palestinians agreed in the Oslo Accords t govern themselves. They don't vote in Israeli elections, and Israelis don't vote in their elections (if they had any).
whearyou 6y ago
“The same racist and supremacist ideology” that is factually incorrect
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  Why? Israel denies citizenship, voting rights, and equal rights to Palestinians (who still have to live according to the law Israeli citizens decide because Israel controls their territory). And the entire basis for doing this is that Jewish people must be the ethnic majority in Israel. It's literally apartheid on ethnic lines.