4 ms·

I don't know that. Economic historians and others have to figure out exactly what caused the end of South Africa's apartheid system (my layman's guess is that i

I don't know that. Economic historians and others have to figure out exactly what caused the end of South Africa's apartheid system (my layman's guess is that it was a combination of multiple factors). What I do know is that black South Africans begged us not to do business with their country until apartheid was abolished. Many of us (and even the US in the end) obliged and cut ties with South Africa. Palestinians are similarly begging us not to do business with Israel over similar human rights violations. We did (eventually) heed the black South Africans' call, so why can't we today heed the Palestinians' call?

ars 6y ago
You have got to be kidding me. You think lack of peace with Palestinians is because of Israel? Do you have any idea how mean peace treaties Israel offered the Palestinians, and Palestinians rejected every single one? If there's anyone you should be pressuring it's Palestinians, but no, instead you are painting Israel with some false apartheid label, and imagining it's Israel that's bad over here. Israel is signing peace treaties with Arab countries right and left, and Palestinians can't even make peace between Hamas and Fatah. Your boycott is very misdirected.
- dleslie 6y ago
  Have any of those treaties offered full and unconditional return of the occupied territories, along with full state independence?
  - vkou 6y ago
    Or, alternatively, integration as equals?
  - ars 6y ago
    Yes, most of them. The amount of land offered varied. In particular check the Olmert peace offer from 2008 which offered Palestinians basically every single thing they wanted - but they refused it anyway (apparently because Abbas was too weak politically to make it happen, and Olmert did not want to go public without assurances from Abbas that it would actually happen). (Not sure about the unconditional part though - why in the world would it be unconditional?)
    - dleslie 6y ago
      Land provided with conditional use is not sovereign land. If the palestinians must continue to defer to israeli conditions on use then the land hasn't truly been returned. The Olmert offering required the large settlements remain, which is an obvious non-starter.

ars 6y ago

You have got to be kidding me. You think lack of peace with Palestinians is because of Israel? Do you have any idea how mean peace treaties Israel offered the Palestinians, and Palestinians rejected every single one? If there's anyone you should be pressuring it's Palestinians, but no, instead you are painting Israel with some false apartheid label, and imagining it's Israel that's bad over here. Israel is signing peace treaties with Arab countries right and left, and Palestinians can't even make peace between Hamas and Fatah. Your boycott is very misdirected.

dleslie 6y ago
Have any of those treaties offered full and unconditional return of the occupied territories, along with full state independence?
- vkou 6y ago
  Or, alternatively, integration as equals?
- ars 6y ago
  Yes, most of them. The amount of land offered varied. In particular check the Olmert peace offer from 2008 which offered Palestinians basically every single thing they wanted - but they refused it anyway (apparently because Abbas was too weak politically to make it happen, and Olmert did not want to go public without assurances from Abbas that it would actually happen). (Not sure about the unconditional part though - why in the world would it be unconditional?)
  - dleslie 6y ago
    Land provided with conditional use is not sovereign land. If the palestinians must continue to defer to israeli conditions on use then the land hasn't truly been returned. The Olmert offering required the large settlements remain, which is an obvious non-starter.