4 ms·

Well, except for the bit about deliberately not conscripting Arab citizens. Apartheid South Africa also didn't give rifles to the conscripted black Africans ei

Well, except for the bit about deliberately not conscripting Arab citizens. Apartheid South Africa also didn't give rifles to the conscripted black Africans either and ask them to patrol white cities. For the same reasons.

marshmallow_12 6y ago
Are the Arab Israelis clamoring to get themselves blown up by human-shield toting, radical extremists in Gaza? I think not. Also, simply not true; https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rJVoNmyCP https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rJVoNmyCP
- throwaway210222 6y ago
  Volunteers aren't conscripts. Surely you know this. Non-apartheid-type governments by definition do not have laws that discriminate by race. Both Apartheid South Africa and contemporary Israel had and have laws explicitly preventing an emormous fraction of their society from every getting near military hardware. Again, for the same reason. I personally couldn't care, but the OP was falsely stating that Israel had no race defined laws in common with Apartheid South Africa. [They have a few more in common, but this was one example I chose].
  - nailer 6y ago
    You're arguing that the privilege of Arabs avoiding military service proves the Israeli government discriminates /against/ Arab citizens. If that's your strongest argument then I'm quite happy.
    - throwaway210222 6y ago
      So why then put the extra burden of defending Israel on just the Jews? An act of unsolicted kindness? Unless of course Israeli jews really, really, really want to avoid training generation after generation after generation of Arabs citizens in IDF tactics and technology. Every year, year-in, year-out. Clearly not trusting people is very obviously a form of government sanctioned discrimination. Which again, is also why Apartheid South Africa also didn't feel comfortable handing millions of young Zulu men (ironically) Israeli designed R4 automatic weapons. Peas, pods.
      - nailer 6y ago
        Edit: looks like the parent didn't even bother much research - Arabs aren't forced to do military service but they're welcome to do so: > National service is compulsory in Israel, with some exemptions — three years for men and two years for women. This rule also applies to the country's non-Jewish Druze and Circassian communities. > Muslim Bedouins, who tend to identify more as Israeli than other Arabs, and Christian Arabs can voluntarily sign up and each minority is represented by a couple of hundred members of the armed forces. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/arab-israelis-are-joining-idf-growing-numbers-officials-n724586 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/arab-israelis-are-joining...
        throwaway210222 6y ago
        "Arabs aren't forced to do military service but they're welcome to do so" Exactly the same situation in Apartheid South Africa. There were whole battalions of volunteer black soldiers. Hell, after 1981 there were even black commissioned officers. But under no circumstances where they arming and training the 'enemy' wholesale - as you said before your edit 'to protect THEIR people'. (Telling choice of words there). You keep making my case for me.
        mola 6y ago
        South africa also had water pipes, so your country is an apartheid country. See? This is silly. Israel is in a tough situation where there are civilians with relative who swear they want to kill al jews. Israel tries to be fair in this scenario. A matter of fact is, non jews can vote, join the police the army and the country has laws that gives non jews the same rights as jews. There are scholarship for non jews, and even programs to make sure they are getting to be doctors lawyers etc. Heck, there are non jewish judges (in the supreme court!), parliament members, and government ministers. The situation is far from normal or sane, But this is very different than what the situation in SA was. Now, all of this might change, as there are very dark forces that through the political situation in israel are trying to change israel from being a liberal democracy (at least striving to be) to become a theocracy/ethnocracy. If they succeed, you might be right in calling israel an apartheid state.
detcader 6y ago
I would suggest one Google "hasbara."
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
This is a fucking stupid take. Why the hell would we want to force Arabs to fight each-other? Let them pay taxes that fund the army and not have to shoot at their own cousins. Conscripting them into civilian national service is a good idea, though, and has broad support.
- throwaway210222 6y ago
  And, the very fact that you consider it OK to *unilaterally* decide what level of conscripted service is acceptable for other Israeli citizens is all the proof you need. Just keep them away from the guns. Like South Africa.
  - eli_gottlieb 6y ago
    Unilaterally? You mean, by voting for a Parliament that makes laws, the same as all other citizens? I don't see any unilateralism there. The Joint Arab List is welcome to put forth a bill to draft all the non-Jews like the Jews -- I'll even demonstrate in support, if it's by their own initiative. But God forbid, apparently, that I should allow people their own choices. Zionism Derangement Syndrome.
    - throwaway210222 6y ago
      " You mean, by voting for a Parliament that makes laws, the same as all other citizens? " Nope: by not having a consitutuion that prevents any parliament voted in by the majority from treating them any differently than Jewish Israelis. Either in terms of benefits or obligations. Equals is well, equal. Completely or not at all.
slavak 6y ago
Arab citizens are very much allowed to volunteer for military service and are given access to the same kind of weapons as any other soldier: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rJVoNmyCP https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rJVoNmyCP It's true they are exempted from the draft, but I don't quite see how that constitutes discrimination _against_ them.

marshmallow_12 6y ago

Are the Arab Israelis clamoring to get themselves blown up by human-shield toting, radical extremists in Gaza? I think not. Also, simply not true; https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rJVoNmyCP https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rJVoNmyCP

throwaway210222 6y ago
Volunteers aren't conscripts. Surely you know this. Non-apartheid-type governments by definition do not have laws that discriminate by race. Both Apartheid South Africa and contemporary Israel had and have laws explicitly preventing an emormous fraction of their society from every getting near military hardware. Again, for the same reason. I personally couldn't care, but the OP was falsely stating that Israel had no race defined laws in common with Apartheid South Africa. [They have a few more in common, but this was one example I chose].
- nailer 6y ago
  You're arguing that the privilege of Arabs avoiding military service proves the Israeli government discriminates /against/ Arab citizens. If that's your strongest argument then I'm quite happy.
  - throwaway210222 6y ago
    So why then put the extra burden of defending Israel on just the Jews? An act of unsolicted kindness? Unless of course Israeli jews really, really, really want to avoid training generation after generation after generation of Arabs citizens in IDF tactics and technology. Every year, year-in, year-out. Clearly not trusting people is very obviously a form of government sanctioned discrimination. Which again, is also why Apartheid South Africa also didn't feel comfortable handing millions of young Zulu men (ironically) Israeli designed R4 automatic weapons. Peas, pods.
    - nailer 6y ago
      Edit: looks like the parent didn't even bother much research - Arabs aren't forced to do military service but they're welcome to do so: > National service is compulsory in Israel, with some exemptions — three years for men and two years for women. This rule also applies to the country's non-Jewish Druze and Circassian communities. > Muslim Bedouins, who tend to identify more as Israeli than other Arabs, and Christian Arabs can voluntarily sign up and each minority is represented by a couple of hundred members of the armed forces. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/arab-israelis-are-joining-idf-growing-numbers-officials-n724586 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/arab-israelis-are-joining...
      - throwaway210222 6y ago
        "Arabs aren't forced to do military service but they're welcome to do so" Exactly the same situation in Apartheid South Africa. There were whole battalions of volunteer black soldiers. Hell, after 1981 there were even black commissioned officers. But under no circumstances where they arming and training the 'enemy' wholesale - as you said before your edit 'to protect THEIR people'. (Telling choice of words there). You keep making my case for me.
        mola 6y ago
        South africa also had water pipes, so your country is an apartheid country. See? This is silly. Israel is in a tough situation where there are civilians with relative who swear they want to kill al jews. Israel tries to be fair in this scenario. A matter of fact is, non jews can vote, join the police the army and the country has laws that gives non jews the same rights as jews. There are scholarship for non jews, and even programs to make sure they are getting to be doctors lawyers etc. Heck, there are non jewish judges (in the supreme court!), parliament members, and government ministers. The situation is far from normal or sane, But this is very different than what the situation in SA was. Now, all of this might change, as there are very dark forces that through the political situation in israel are trying to change israel from being a liberal democracy (at least striving to be) to become a theocracy/ethnocracy. If they succeed, you might be right in calling israel an apartheid state.

detcader 6y ago

I would suggest one Google "hasbara."

eli_gottlieb 6y ago

This is a fucking stupid take. Why the hell would we want to force Arabs to fight each-other? Let them pay taxes that fund the army and not have to shoot at their own cousins. Conscripting them into civilian national service is a good idea, though, and has broad support.

throwaway210222 6y ago
And, the very fact that you consider it OK to *unilaterally* decide what level of conscripted service is acceptable for other Israeli citizens is all the proof you need. Just keep them away from the guns. Like South Africa.
- eli_gottlieb 6y ago
  Unilaterally? You mean, by voting for a Parliament that makes laws, the same as all other citizens? I don't see any unilateralism there. The Joint Arab List is welcome to put forth a bill to draft all the non-Jews like the Jews -- I'll even demonstrate in support, if it's by their own initiative. But God forbid, apparently, that I should allow people their own choices. Zionism Derangement Syndrome.
  - throwaway210222 6y ago
    " You mean, by voting for a Parliament that makes laws, the same as all other citizens? " Nope: by not having a consitutuion that prevents any parliament voted in by the majority from treating them any differently than Jewish Israelis. Either in terms of benefits or obligations. Equals is well, equal. Completely or not at all.

slavak 6y ago

Arab citizens are very much allowed to volunteer for military service and are given access to the same kind of weapons as any other soldier: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rJVoNmyCP https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rJVoNmyCP It's true they are exempted from the draft, but I don't quite see how that constitutes discrimination _against_ them.