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You're right but that doesn't mean we should accept it. Why we didn't accept it when Saddam invaded Koweit or when Russia annexed Crimea? Colonization of Palest

by watoc 6y ago

You're right but that doesn't mean we should accept it. Why we didn't accept it when Saddam invaded Koweit or when Russia annexed Crimea? Colonization of Palestine has very negative direct and indirect consequences on our world.

smachiz 6y ago
Sorry - has something changed with Crimea? Begrudging acceptance seems to be exactly where we're at....
- watoc 6y ago
  AFAIK very few countries have recognized Crimea as part of Russia. So my comment is still valid, most countries did not accept the annexion.
  - smachiz 6y ago
    but also haven't really done much about it right? We threw some sanctions on them... that appear to be fairly toothless.
  - slavak 6y ago
    No countries recognize Israeli claims to the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and even the comparatively tame annexation of the Golan Heights is recognized by very few. That means, formally, Israeli actions in the OPT are even less accepted than Russia's annexation of Crimea. Practically, begrudging acceptance seems to be a very apt description, arguably of the latter even more so than the former.
    - watoc 6y ago
      Didn't the Trump administration declare that the settlements were not illegal? Palestine is not even fully recognized as an independent state. Besides the comparaison with Crimea, the point was that borders throughout history have been shaped by colonizations and invasions but that cannot be used to justify colonization itself.
nailer 6y ago
Crimea was given by Stalin to Ukraine relatively recently. Yes, Russia took it back by threat of force, but it's not like they didn't have some historic claim to the land, much like Jews do to the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea#1954_Transfer_to_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea#1954_Transfe...
- watoc 6y ago
  That's a very slippery slope if you justify the colonization of Palestine by Israel because it was part of a jewish kingdom thousands of years ago. Spain has been muslim for centuries would that be acceptable if they settled again there by force?
  - nailer 6y ago
    There is no colonisation to justify or otherwise, there was a continuous use of the land by Jewish people since this time. The name 'Palestinea' only came about as a punishment by the Romans for Simon bar Kokhba. Not that Wikipedia itself is a good source, but thi has a bunch of references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba > In the aftermath of the war, Hadrian consolidated the older political units of Judaea, Galilee and Samaria into the new province of Syria Palaestina, which is commonly interpreted as an attempt to complete the disassociation with Judaea.
    - watoc 6y ago
      There has been a continuous use of the land by Christians and Muslims for centuries as well. So because Judaism has existed the longest they have the right to expel everybody else or best case scenario, make them second-class citizen (Law of Return, Jewish National Fund ...). There has also been a continuous presence of native Americans for much longer than Europeans in North America... If you're denying that colonization even exists it will be difficult to have a discussion based on facts.
      - 6y ago

by watoc 6y ago

smachiz 6y ago

Sorry - has something changed with Crimea? Begrudging acceptance seems to be exactly where we're at....

watoc 6y ago
AFAIK very few countries have recognized Crimea as part of Russia. So my comment is still valid, most countries did not accept the annexion.
- smachiz 6y ago
  but also haven't really done much about it right? We threw some sanctions on them... that appear to be fairly toothless.
- slavak 6y ago
  No countries recognize Israeli claims to the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and even the comparatively tame annexation of the Golan Heights is recognized by very few. That means, formally, Israeli actions in the OPT are even less accepted than Russia's annexation of Crimea. Practically, begrudging acceptance seems to be a very apt description, arguably of the latter even more so than the former.
  - watoc 6y ago
    Didn't the Trump administration declare that the settlements were not illegal? Palestine is not even fully recognized as an independent state. Besides the comparaison with Crimea, the point was that borders throughout history have been shaped by colonizations and invasions but that cannot be used to justify colonization itself.

nailer 6y ago

Crimea was given by Stalin to Ukraine relatively recently. Yes, Russia took it back by threat of force, but it's not like they didn't have some historic claim to the land, much like Jews do to the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea#1954_Transfer_to_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea#1954_Transfe...

watoc 6y ago
That's a very slippery slope if you justify the colonization of Palestine by Israel because it was part of a jewish kingdom thousands of years ago. Spain has been muslim for centuries would that be acceptable if they settled again there by force?
- nailer 6y ago
  There is no colonisation to justify or otherwise, there was a continuous use of the land by Jewish people since this time. The name 'Palestinea' only came about as a punishment by the Romans for Simon bar Kokhba. Not that Wikipedia itself is a good source, but thi has a bunch of references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba > In the aftermath of the war, Hadrian consolidated the older political units of Judaea, Galilee and Samaria into the new province of Syria Palaestina, which is commonly interpreted as an attempt to complete the disassociation with Judaea.
  - watoc 6y ago
    There has been a continuous use of the land by Christians and Muslims for centuries as well. So because Judaism has existed the longest they have the right to expel everybody else or best case scenario, make them second-class citizen (Law of Return, Jewish National Fund ...). There has also been a continuous presence of native Americans for much longer than Europeans in North America... If you're denying that colonization even exists it will be difficult to have a discussion based on facts.
    - 6y ago