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Important to remember but not quite the same as colonizing a region in the 20th century. This isn’t the distant past, it’s actively happening.

bzbarsky 6y ago
Which is why Poland and Germany constantly fight over the border that was imposed post-WWII (20th century, yes) and the population displacement that took place at that time, right? It's really easy to declare things as black and white. It's seldom accurate. (Important note: a large fraction, a majority depending on how you count it, of Israel's population are descendants of Jews who were ejected from other Middle Eastern countries after the establishment of Israel? Are they to be considered "colonizers" in your framing?)
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  > a large fraction, a majority depending on how you count it, of Israel's population are descendants of Jews who were ejected from other Middle Eastern countries after the establishment of Israel This is not modern history. Yes they are colonizers. By your logic, anyone could just invade Africa and start a country there since all humanity's ancestors descended from the region. > It's really easy to declare things as black and white. Colonization and genocide are actually pretty black and white. Israel is violating international law and committing human rights violations.
  - bzbarsky 6y ago
    > This is not modern history. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing: we're talking about the mass ejections of Jews from various Middle Eastern and North African countries in the 50s, 60s, and 70s of the 20th century, right? And if that's not modern history, then how is the establishment of Israel at the same time modern history? > Yes they are colonizers. They were refugees, more precisely. But just to be specific, what is your concrete proposal for where they should have gone? > By your logic, anyone could just invade Africa and start a country there since all humanity's ancestors descended from the region. No, I don't see how that's an analogous situation at all. My question about Israel is a pretty specific one: I challenge its presentation as a "European" or "Western" colonial project. Though maybe that was not your intent? > Colonization and genocide are actually pretty black and white We'd have to clearly define "colonization", since I suspect we disagree on whether specific actions constitute it. Genocide is pretty black and white, I agree. I am opposed to genocide. We may disagree on whether there is genocide, or attempted genocide going on in various situations, unfortunately. Concretely: Do you feel that Israel is attempting a genocide campaign against the Palestinians? Do you feel that the Israeli electorate supports such a campaign? Do you feel that the Palestinians are attempting a genocide campaign against Jews? Do you feel that their electorate (using that term loosely, due to lack of elections) supports such a campaign? Fundamentally, I disagree with both the "from the river to the sea" narrative and the "all of Judea and Samaria" narrative... (And I do note that neither of those is necessarily genocidal, though both can be nice jumps onto slippery slopes towards there.) > Israel is violating international law and committing human rights violations. Yes, I agree. But just to make sure we're on the same page, so are the Palestinians, every single country Israel has a border with (on the human rights violation parts of the ledger for sure), and quite a number of other entities. Including, I am 99% sure, the country you live in. There are questions of scope and degree, of course. Please don't mention the words "false equivalence", because I am not claiming that anything here is "equivalent" to anything else, and if I were we'd likely disagree on what equivalences are "true" vs "false". More practically, what specific actions do you think would be required for Israel to stop committing what you perceive as human rights violations and international law violations? And if your answer is "dissolve itself as an entity and have all the Jews go somewhere else", then I can see how that's a consistent moral position, but that does not match either international law nor morality as I perceive it. If that's not your position, then were back to trying to figure out various shades of grey, as far as I can tell, which we're probably not going to manage to work out in this sort of discussion.
    - solosoyokaze 6y ago
      Israel actively planned to grow its non-native population and encouraged immigration from neighboring countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Plan Yes, I think Israel is attempting a genocide against the Palestinians. The ICC is currently investigating war crimes: https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-palestinian-territories-courts-crime-19117d4265f5d564256ea7fe75854aa6 https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-palestinian-terr...
      - bzbarsky 6y ago
        Israel encouraged immigration, yes. And the countries the Mizrahi Jews left did all sorts of things that encouraged their Jews to leave. > Yes, I think Israel is attempting a genocide against the Palestinians. OK, we have that clear. I asked three other questions in the paragraph where I asked that question, and I'd love to know what your answers to those are. > The ICC is currently investigating war crimes As they should, yes. I don't think everything Israel does is either acceptable or even justified, by any means.
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        No, I don't think the Palestinians are engaging in genocide against the Israelis. Yes, I think Israel should be disbanded. As for what to do with people who don't want to stay? I'd be more than happy to welcome them to the US.
        bzbarsky 6y ago
        Thank you, that makes your position quite clear. I appreciate your continued engagement with this conversation and the fact that I think we managed to keep it reasonably polite...
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        Agree.
  - eli_gottlieb 6y ago
    I admire your ability to bite the bullet and call Mizrahi Jews colonizers for being ethnically cleansed and fleeing to their indigenous homeland.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ocschwar 6y ago
So's the arrival of Jewish refugees from Arab countries, which is still ongoing.

bzbarsky 6y ago

Which is why Poland and Germany constantly fight over the border that was imposed post-WWII (20th century, yes) and the population displacement that took place at that time, right? It's really easy to declare things as black and white. It's seldom accurate. (Important note: a large fraction, a majority depending on how you count it, of Israel's population are descendants of Jews who were ejected from other Middle Eastern countries after the establishment of Israel? Are they to be considered "colonizers" in your framing?)

solosoyokaze 6y ago
> a large fraction, a majority depending on how you count it, of Israel's population are descendants of Jews who were ejected from other Middle Eastern countries after the establishment of Israel This is not modern history. Yes they are colonizers. By your logic, anyone could just invade Africa and start a country there since all humanity's ancestors descended from the region. > It's really easy to declare things as black and white. Colonization and genocide are actually pretty black and white. Israel is violating international law and committing human rights violations.
- bzbarsky 6y ago
  > This is not modern history. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing: we're talking about the mass ejections of Jews from various Middle Eastern and North African countries in the 50s, 60s, and 70s of the 20th century, right? And if that's not modern history, then how is the establishment of Israel at the same time modern history? > Yes they are colonizers. They were refugees, more precisely. But just to be specific, what is your concrete proposal for where they should have gone? > By your logic, anyone could just invade Africa and start a country there since all humanity's ancestors descended from the region. No, I don't see how that's an analogous situation at all. My question about Israel is a pretty specific one: I challenge its presentation as a "European" or "Western" colonial project. Though maybe that was not your intent? > Colonization and genocide are actually pretty black and white We'd have to clearly define "colonization", since I suspect we disagree on whether specific actions constitute it. Genocide is pretty black and white, I agree. I am opposed to genocide. We may disagree on whether there is genocide, or attempted genocide going on in various situations, unfortunately. Concretely: Do you feel that Israel is attempting a genocide campaign against the Palestinians? Do you feel that the Israeli electorate supports such a campaign? Do you feel that the Palestinians are attempting a genocide campaign against Jews? Do you feel that their electorate (using that term loosely, due to lack of elections) supports such a campaign? Fundamentally, I disagree with both the "from the river to the sea" narrative and the "all of Judea and Samaria" narrative... (And I do note that neither of those is necessarily genocidal, though both can be nice jumps onto slippery slopes towards there.) > Israel is violating international law and committing human rights violations. Yes, I agree. But just to make sure we're on the same page, so are the Palestinians, every single country Israel has a border with (on the human rights violation parts of the ledger for sure), and quite a number of other entities. Including, I am 99% sure, the country you live in. There are questions of scope and degree, of course. Please don't mention the words "false equivalence", because I am not claiming that anything here is "equivalent" to anything else, and if I were we'd likely disagree on what equivalences are "true" vs "false". More practically, what specific actions do you think would be required for Israel to stop committing what you perceive as human rights violations and international law violations? And if your answer is "dissolve itself as an entity and have all the Jews go somewhere else", then I can see how that's a consistent moral position, but that does not match either international law nor morality as I perceive it. If that's not your position, then were back to trying to figure out various shades of grey, as far as I can tell, which we're probably not going to manage to work out in this sort of discussion.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    Israel actively planned to grow its non-native population and encouraged immigration from neighboring countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Plan Yes, I think Israel is attempting a genocide against the Palestinians. The ICC is currently investigating war crimes: https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-palestinian-territories-courts-crime-19117d4265f5d564256ea7fe75854aa6 https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-palestinian-terr...
    - bzbarsky 6y ago
      Israel encouraged immigration, yes. And the countries the Mizrahi Jews left did all sorts of things that encouraged their Jews to leave. > Yes, I think Israel is attempting a genocide against the Palestinians. OK, we have that clear. I asked three other questions in the paragraph where I asked that question, and I'd love to know what your answers to those are. > The ICC is currently investigating war crimes As they should, yes. I don't think everything Israel does is either acceptable or even justified, by any means.
      - solosoyokaze 6y ago
        No, I don't think the Palestinians are engaging in genocide against the Israelis. Yes, I think Israel should be disbanded. As for what to do with people who don't want to stay? I'd be more than happy to welcome them to the US.
        bzbarsky 6y ago
        Thank you, that makes your position quite clear. I appreciate your continued engagement with this conversation and the fact that I think we managed to keep it reasonably polite...
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        Agree.
- eli_gottlieb 6y ago
  I admire your ability to bite the bullet and call Mizrahi Jews colonizers for being ethnically cleansed and fleeing to their indigenous homeland.

deleted 6y ago

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ocschwar 6y ago

So's the arrival of Jewish refugees from Arab countries, which is still ongoing.