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I don't understand Greece's actions in this matter. Why is Greece so keen on poking Turkey rather than working together? There is no winners in this lose-lose s

by Qahlel 6y ago

I don't understand Greece's actions in this matter. Why is Greece so keen on poking Turkey rather than working together? There is no winners in this lose-lose scenario. This is like trying to go Manhattan from NJ without entering NY. I mean... it's impossible. (Greek nationals doesn't seem to like this comment)

PartiallyTyped 6y ago
Things would have been better had Turkey tried to actually cooperate for once, instead of repeatedly provoking and going as far as invading Greece's and Cyprus' EEZs.
p_papageorgiou 6y ago
Whys is this considered poking? I think the interpretation of this is highly linked to political interpretation.
- ddddq 6y ago
  Because turks are really nationalistic and they see everything as a threat and they see themself always a victim. Like they see a country with a population of 10 millions provoking a country with 82 million inhabitants, just because Israel wants to link their power grid to Europe. Talking of poking and insecurity, how is it even possible to see Israel connecting their power grid to Europe as poking by Greece? Why should Greece, Cyprus and Israel ask Turkey first, if doesn't go through turkish sea and land?
  - csunbird 6y ago
    Disclaimer: I am Turkish and I live in Europe. I mean, the dispute between Turkey and Greece mostly is about the islands that are literally 5 to 10kms away from Turkish mainland and Greece trying to claim the whole Aegan See for themselves, citing the islands are her waters and there a LOT of islands, enough to cover Aegean See and isolating Turkey’s west shores. It causes a dispute, since if Greece would have their way, Turkey would not even be able to use her west shores. Greece invading west Turkey in WW1 does not help either. The conflicts are really feels like children arguing with each other. Both parties needs to stop, but I think both governments/ruling parties enjoy nationalist votes from fueling this dispute. Other countries, who have interest in this dispute, does not help either.
    - eruci 6y ago
      Incorrect! Greece did not invade Turkey in WW2. It was itself invaded by Italy & Nazi Germany in WW2.
      - csunbird 6y ago
        I mistyped WW1 as WW2 - thank you! It is now fixed.
siculars 6y ago
Na. Turkey needs to be counterd by others. And others need to defend themselves from Turkey. These the are natural allies in this region for obvious, not so obvious, subtle and not so subtle reasons. There is a very long history of unhappiness between Turkey and these three countries.
jo6gwb 6y ago
To go from NJ to Manhattan without entering other boroughs one would simply take the Lincoln Tunnel, Holland Tunnel or GWB. Alternatively one can take a ferry or even a railroad barge.
- Qahlel 6y ago
  I didn't say without entering other boroughs. Manhattan is in NY. You can't go to Manhattan without being in NY.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    But... you can go from Israel to Cyprus to Greece without entering Turkey, even if you accept their claim to Northern Cyprus.
gregoriol 6y ago
It's more likely that Israel here has interest into linking with the European grid (Cyprus being just in the middle), and not Greece linking with Israel's
Grazester 6y ago
Don't Turkey and Greece have issues with one another? Why run a backup line through a country you have grievances with? Every time you enter Manhattan from NJ using the tunnels or the George Washington bridge you are directly entering the City of New York(which is in the state of New York).
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Turkey has a history of claiming an EEZ way to the south of Cyprus (and also claiming an EEZ even past Crete in the Aegean), not wanting to work together and then accusing Greece of not working with them when Greece signs treaties to pass undersea cables in areas that Turkey claims as Turkish EEZ. It's all a bit of a clusterfuck, I'm not even entirely clear on what areas Turkey claims and what areas Greece claims. Turkey also refuses to go to the ICJ to resolve this, which would have been a good solution, in my opinion.
Jochim 6y ago
I'm not Greek, but your question seems to be disingenuous considering the fact that the long running dispute between Cyprus and Turkey is fairly common knowledge. See this[1] for why ethnic Greeks might consider Turkey to be disinterested in working together. [1]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03526/Turkey_3526321k.jpg https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03526/Turkey_...
deftnerd 6y ago
[1] this episode of the Caspian Report (an excellent Youtube channel on international affairs) discusses how Israel and Turkey are trying to establish stronger diplomatic ties in order to directly connect their maritime EEZ's and block Cyprus from the Mediterranean. It would give the both access to undersea hydrocarbon deposits, and Israel was going to support route changes of pipelines to pass more through Turkey. I suspect this project and goal is somehow intertwined, but I'm not versed enough with international relations to see the big picture. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOMSTElVHk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOMSTElVHk
- cblconfederate 6y ago
  Worth noting that Caspian Report is made by an azerbaijani guy who is, not very objective, with regards to matters that have to do with turkey The video you talk about is probably talking about a proposal that Turkey made to Israel which runs counter to every international maritime law (it was promptly rejected by israel) . AFAIK they made similar proposals to egypt
m000 6y ago
> Greek nationals doesn't seem to like this comment Yes, they also seem to have bribed foreignpolicy.com [1] to slander the peace-keeping efforts of Turkey in the region. [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/08/turkey-military-overstretched-nagorno-karabakh-turkish-military-presence/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/08/turkey-military-overstr...
- ddddq 6y ago
  Turkey should not invade foreign countries, then they can talk about peace.
  - m000 6y ago
    I was obviously being ironic above. The point is that as long as Turkey is opportunistically involved in every military conflict they believe they can get gains from, they can't be seen as a trusted partner by their neighboring countries.
    - csunbird 6y ago
      All countries (also people) do that. If you have power, you put in use. See USA(Iraq), Russia (Crimea), Germany (WW2), Britain (colonies) etc... I do not support war or occupation but countries behave like high school children - bullies are going to bully. But, you find all those countries that I listed above, “trustworthy”, is that correct? The problem here is, “trustworthy” does not mean anything in international relations. It is all about having the outcomes you want, one way or another. If peace gets you what you want, its great. If war, then you go to war. That is why European Union removed the borders, unified the economic area, so that they will be too integrated/extremely hard to decouple to have war again, because treaties or trustworthiness is meaningless in scale of countries.
      - chr1 6y ago
        It's not completely random, e.g. it would be very hard for a politician in USA to convince population that it is a good idea to bully Canada. And it would not require any convincing for Turkish citizens to accept any action against Greece. So being extremely suspicious of Turkey is the only possible policy for Greece.
pjc50 6y ago
> Greece so keen on poking Turkey rather than working together Turkey has not yet withdrawn from what is legally Cypriot territory on the north of the island. That would be the bare minimum of cooperation required. (No connection to Greece myself) https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement/briefings/1a2_en.htm https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement/briefings/1a2_en....
1234throwaway 6y ago
is also isreal decision reality is turks are often... detach from reality politically. such is life in 2nd world countries like lebanon, turkey, malaya, indonesia etc
dudul 6y ago
Sure, the country who invaded and has been illegally occupying 1/3 of another country for half a century is the one being poked at.
ziofill 6y ago
Not to mention that Turkey is preventing Cyprus from accessing their own offshore oil reserves: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-warns-turkey-over-oil-drilling-in-cypriot-waters/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-warns-turkey-over-oil-dri...

by Qahlel 6y ago

PartiallyTyped 6y ago

Things would have been better had Turkey tried to actually cooperate for once, instead of repeatedly provoking and going as far as invading Greece's and Cyprus' EEZs.

p_papageorgiou 6y ago

Whys is this considered poking? I think the interpretation of this is highly linked to political interpretation.

ddddq 6y ago
Because turks are really nationalistic and they see everything as a threat and they see themself always a victim. Like they see a country with a population of 10 millions provoking a country with 82 million inhabitants, just because Israel wants to link their power grid to Europe. Talking of poking and insecurity, how is it even possible to see Israel connecting their power grid to Europe as poking by Greece? Why should Greece, Cyprus and Israel ask Turkey first, if doesn't go through turkish sea and land?
- csunbird 6y ago
  Disclaimer: I am Turkish and I live in Europe. I mean, the dispute between Turkey and Greece mostly is about the islands that are literally 5 to 10kms away from Turkish mainland and Greece trying to claim the whole Aegan See for themselves, citing the islands are her waters and there a LOT of islands, enough to cover Aegean See and isolating Turkey’s west shores. It causes a dispute, since if Greece would have their way, Turkey would not even be able to use her west shores. Greece invading west Turkey in WW1 does not help either. The conflicts are really feels like children arguing with each other. Both parties needs to stop, but I think both governments/ruling parties enjoy nationalist votes from fueling this dispute. Other countries, who have interest in this dispute, does not help either.
  - eruci 6y ago
    Incorrect! Greece did not invade Turkey in WW2. It was itself invaded by Italy & Nazi Germany in WW2.
    - csunbird 6y ago
      I mistyped WW1 as WW2 - thank you! It is now fixed.

siculars 6y ago

Na. Turkey needs to be counterd by others. And others need to defend themselves from Turkey. These the are natural allies in this region for obvious, not so obvious, subtle and not so subtle reasons. There is a very long history of unhappiness between Turkey and these three countries.

jo6gwb 6y ago

To go from NJ to Manhattan without entering other boroughs one would simply take the Lincoln Tunnel, Holland Tunnel or GWB. Alternatively one can take a ferry or even a railroad barge.

Qahlel 6y ago
I didn't say without entering other boroughs. Manhattan is in NY. You can't go to Manhattan without being in NY.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  But... you can go from Israel to Cyprus to Greece without entering Turkey, even if you accept their claim to Northern Cyprus.

gregoriol 6y ago

It's more likely that Israel here has interest into linking with the European grid (Cyprus being just in the middle), and not Greece linking with Israel's

Grazester 6y ago

Don't Turkey and Greece have issues with one another? Why run a backup line through a country you have grievances with? Every time you enter Manhattan from NJ using the tunnels or the George Washington bridge you are directly entering the City of New York(which is in the state of New York).

StavrosK 6y ago
Turkey has a history of claiming an EEZ way to the south of Cyprus (and also claiming an EEZ even past Crete in the Aegean), not wanting to work together and then accusing Greece of not working with them when Greece signs treaties to pass undersea cables in areas that Turkey claims as Turkish EEZ. It's all a bit of a clusterfuck, I'm not even entirely clear on what areas Turkey claims and what areas Greece claims. Turkey also refuses to go to the ICJ to resolve this, which would have been a good solution, in my opinion.

Jochim 6y ago

I'm not Greek, but your question seems to be disingenuous considering the fact that the long running dispute between Cyprus and Turkey is fairly common knowledge. See this[1] for why ethnic Greeks might consider Turkey to be disinterested in working together. [1]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03526/Turkey_3526321k.jpg https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03526/Turkey_...

deftnerd 6y ago

[1] this episode of the Caspian Report (an excellent Youtube channel on international affairs) discusses how Israel and Turkey are trying to establish stronger diplomatic ties in order to directly connect their maritime EEZ's and block Cyprus from the Mediterranean. It would give the both access to undersea hydrocarbon deposits, and Israel was going to support route changes of pipelines to pass more through Turkey. I suspect this project and goal is somehow intertwined, but I'm not versed enough with international relations to see the big picture. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOMSTElVHk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOMSTElVHk

cblconfederate 6y ago
Worth noting that Caspian Report is made by an azerbaijani guy who is, not very objective, with regards to matters that have to do with turkey The video you talk about is probably talking about a proposal that Turkey made to Israel which runs counter to every international maritime law (it was promptly rejected by israel) . AFAIK they made similar proposals to egypt

m000 6y ago

> Greek nationals doesn't seem to like this comment Yes, they also seem to have bribed foreignpolicy.com [1] to slander the peace-keeping efforts of Turkey in the region. [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/08/turkey-military-overstretched-nagorno-karabakh-turkish-military-presence/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/08/turkey-military-overstr...

ddddq 6y ago
Turkey should not invade foreign countries, then they can talk about peace.
- m000 6y ago
  I was obviously being ironic above. The point is that as long as Turkey is opportunistically involved in every military conflict they believe they can get gains from, they can't be seen as a trusted partner by their neighboring countries.
  - csunbird 6y ago
    All countries (also people) do that. If you have power, you put in use. See USA(Iraq), Russia (Crimea), Germany (WW2), Britain (colonies) etc... I do not support war or occupation but countries behave like high school children - bullies are going to bully. But, you find all those countries that I listed above, “trustworthy”, is that correct? The problem here is, “trustworthy” does not mean anything in international relations. It is all about having the outcomes you want, one way or another. If peace gets you what you want, its great. If war, then you go to war. That is why European Union removed the borders, unified the economic area, so that they will be too integrated/extremely hard to decouple to have war again, because treaties or trustworthiness is meaningless in scale of countries.
    - chr1 6y ago
      It's not completely random, e.g. it would be very hard for a politician in USA to convince population that it is a good idea to bully Canada. And it would not require any convincing for Turkish citizens to accept any action against Greece. So being extremely suspicious of Turkey is the only possible policy for Greece.

pjc50 6y ago

> Greece so keen on poking Turkey rather than working together Turkey has not yet withdrawn from what is legally Cypriot territory on the north of the island. That would be the bare minimum of cooperation required. (No connection to Greece myself) https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement/briefings/1a2_en.htm https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement/briefings/1a2_en....

1234throwaway 6y ago

is also isreal decision reality is turks are often... detach from reality politically. such is life in 2nd world countries like lebanon, turkey, malaya, indonesia etc

dudul 6y ago

Sure, the country who invaded and has been illegally occupying 1/3 of another country for half a century is the one being poked at.

ziofill 6y ago

Not to mention that Turkey is preventing Cyprus from accessing their own offshore oil reserves: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-warns-turkey-over-oil-drilling-in-cypriot-waters/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-warns-turkey-over-oil-dri...