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Fiat money is the outcome of unfettered capitalism. The government needs money to pay its loans that it took with interest, so what does it do? Detach the curre

Fiat money is the outcome of unfettered capitalism. The government needs money to pay its loans that it took with interest, so what does it do? Detach the currency from anything tangible like gold or other precious metals, then print more money as it desires, devaluing the hard work of people who are trying to save money. There's a reason that interest and usury are prohibited in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Market competition is good. Interest and usury are destructive dangerous practices.

pram 6y ago
Currency debasement is a pretty ancient phenomenon. It’s also not usury.
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  The usury comes from the government taking loans with interest, so it is forced to print more money to cover its deficits which keep growing due to interest.
  - the_only_law 6y ago
    Funny enough this is exactly what happened my last EU4 game.
  - zo1 6y ago
    Printing money is the problem there, not interest. If you banned interest/loaning, you could still end up having inflation because government would print money (or do other things such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin#Debasement_and_clipping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin#Debasement_and_clipping ).
    - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
      It's a combination of interest as well as printing money. Interest keeps the deficit growing, forcing the government to print money. If we switch to a non-inflationary currency not at the control of a single entity, these wouldn't happen.
swiley 6y ago
I'm pretty sure interest isn't prohibited in Christianity (not protestant Christianity anyway.)
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  It was prohibited in early Christianity before the Church gave in and allowed it.
  - swiley 6y ago
    I'd like to hear your source for this.
    - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
      There's information on Wikipedia, even though Wikipedia is generally not a good source on nuanced religious topics. I found many incorrect things mentioned about Islam for example (I'm Muslim). > At times, many nations from ancient Greece to ancient Rome have outlawed loans with any interest. Though the Roman Empire eventually allowed loans with carefully restricted interest rates, the Catholic Church in medieval Europe, as well as the Reformed Churches, regarded the charging of interest at any rate as sinful (as well as charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change). [1] So we see how the Church changed its opinion over time. They weaseled their way out of the prohibition, and today they don't say anything. Separation of Church and State also made it easier to engage in these sorts of practices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury
zo1 6y ago
So in the same paragraph you blame capitalism for something the government does without our consent? We have to at least assign blame equally, instead of picking and choosing which involved systems and actors to blame. Especially if we can't agree on the actual causes. On a side note: I have seen some good analysis/speculation/theorizing done about how interest/loaning would work in a world without government-regulation. Have a look, there may be some redemption in those concepts for you if you divorce them from government meddling (which I would posit, causes a huge chunk of all the evils we blame on capitalism).
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  We have to move away from interest as an underlying mechanism, it's one of the root causes of the chaos in today's financial world. The superior model is investments, similar to how VCs invest in companies in exchange for equity. Loans are to be relegated to charity only. If we apply all this, loans will become close to non-existent. We have seen this successfully work because interest is prohibited in Islam, yet it was able to flourish especially in the Islamic Golden Age to push the boundaries of knowledge and science and exploration, during a time where Europe was in the dark ages.
  - Miraste 6y ago
    How do you reconcile your idea that Islamic banking systems will lead to no inflation with the inflation rates of countries that have large Islamic banks, which are much higher than the US?
lottin 6y ago
People don't save money. They save consumption, and the savings are in the form of money or other assets.
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  If I have $10 from 10 years ago, they're worth less today. The government's incompetence and engagement in usury has caused my money to lose value.
  - lottin 6y ago
    They are pretty competent at getting inflation to the intended target. Maybe you're missing something?
    - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
      There shouldn't be a target. I don't want my money to be inflated artificially by the government.
      - lottin 6y ago
        Okay, then say you disagree with the target, but don't say they are incompetent.
        gher-shyu3i 6y ago
        Why? The very fact that they are engaging in usurious loans is a sign of incompetence. Who ends up paying for it? The hard working people trying to save money.
        hedora 6y ago
        Save the money in a way that encourages economic growth (buy stocks, invest in a small business, etc).
reedjosh 6y ago
> The government needs money to pay its loans that it took with interest, so what does it do? Detach the currency from anything tangible like gold or other precious metals, then print more money as it desires. That sounds like a government problem--not a capitalism problem. Though I do agree that this is the heart of the fiat issue.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
As population grows and goods get cheaper, it can work the other way too. That can make money more scarce and more valuable. Economics is complicated. Pointing to one lever and saying "I understand the whole machine" is lazy. I call it 'playing dot to dot'. If you just draw lines between any dots you please, you can make the picture look like anything you want. But there is a real picture there, it has lots of dots, and its worth understanding. Pontificating on the internet is not showing real understanding.
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  That's why we also should use a bartering system to keep things in check, just like how societies survived for thousands of years. I'm not claiming to understand the whole machine, however, we know for certain there are rotten practices that make the machine unstable and also much more difficult to understand. Interest and usury are at the core, along with other things that are prohibited by Islam (e.g. selling things that you don't own and several more). Once those are removed, the system will become much more stable, fair, and better off for everyone.

pram 6y ago

Currency debasement is a pretty ancient phenomenon. It’s also not usury.

gher-shyu3i 6y ago
The usury comes from the government taking loans with interest, so it is forced to print more money to cover its deficits which keep growing due to interest.
- the_only_law 6y ago
  Funny enough this is exactly what happened my last EU4 game.
- zo1 6y ago
  Printing money is the problem there, not interest. If you banned interest/loaning, you could still end up having inflation because government would print money (or do other things such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin#Debasement_and_clipping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin#Debasement_and_clipping ).
  - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
    It's a combination of interest as well as printing money. Interest keeps the deficit growing, forcing the government to print money. If we switch to a non-inflationary currency not at the control of a single entity, these wouldn't happen.

swiley 6y ago

I'm pretty sure interest isn't prohibited in Christianity (not protestant Christianity anyway.)

gher-shyu3i 6y ago
It was prohibited in early Christianity before the Church gave in and allowed it.
- swiley 6y ago
  I'd like to hear your source for this.
  - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
    There's information on Wikipedia, even though Wikipedia is generally not a good source on nuanced religious topics. I found many incorrect things mentioned about Islam for example (I'm Muslim). > At times, many nations from ancient Greece to ancient Rome have outlawed loans with any interest. Though the Roman Empire eventually allowed loans with carefully restricted interest rates, the Catholic Church in medieval Europe, as well as the Reformed Churches, regarded the charging of interest at any rate as sinful (as well as charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change). [1] So we see how the Church changed its opinion over time. They weaseled their way out of the prohibition, and today they don't say anything. Separation of Church and State also made it easier to engage in these sorts of practices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

zo1 6y ago

So in the same paragraph you blame capitalism for something the government does without our consent? We have to at least assign blame equally, instead of picking and choosing which involved systems and actors to blame. Especially if we can't agree on the actual causes. On a side note: I have seen some good analysis/speculation/theorizing done about how interest/loaning would work in a world without government-regulation. Have a look, there may be some redemption in those concepts for you if you divorce them from government meddling (which I would posit, causes a huge chunk of all the evils we blame on capitalism).

gher-shyu3i 6y ago
We have to move away from interest as an underlying mechanism, it's one of the root causes of the chaos in today's financial world. The superior model is investments, similar to how VCs invest in companies in exchange for equity. Loans are to be relegated to charity only. If we apply all this, loans will become close to non-existent. We have seen this successfully work because interest is prohibited in Islam, yet it was able to flourish especially in the Islamic Golden Age to push the boundaries of knowledge and science and exploration, during a time where Europe was in the dark ages.
- Miraste 6y ago
  How do you reconcile your idea that Islamic banking systems will lead to no inflation with the inflation rates of countries that have large Islamic banks, which are much higher than the US?

lottin 6y ago

People don't save money. They save consumption, and the savings are in the form of money or other assets.

gher-shyu3i 6y ago
If I have $10 from 10 years ago, they're worth less today. The government's incompetence and engagement in usury has caused my money to lose value.
- lottin 6y ago
  They are pretty competent at getting inflation to the intended target. Maybe you're missing something?
  - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
    There shouldn't be a target. I don't want my money to be inflated artificially by the government.
    - lottin 6y ago
      Okay, then say you disagree with the target, but don't say they are incompetent.
      - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
        Why? The very fact that they are engaging in usurious loans is a sign of incompetence. Who ends up paying for it? The hard working people trying to save money.
        hedora 6y ago
        Save the money in a way that encourages economic growth (buy stocks, invest in a small business, etc).

reedjosh 6y ago

> The government needs money to pay its loans that it took with interest, so what does it do? Detach the currency from anything tangible like gold or other precious metals, then print more money as it desires. That sounds like a government problem--not a capitalism problem. Though I do agree that this is the heart of the fiat issue.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

As population grows and goods get cheaper, it can work the other way too. That can make money more scarce and more valuable. Economics is complicated. Pointing to one lever and saying "I understand the whole machine" is lazy. I call it 'playing dot to dot'. If you just draw lines between any dots you please, you can make the picture look like anything you want. But there is a real picture there, it has lots of dots, and its worth understanding. Pontificating on the internet is not showing real understanding.

gher-shyu3i 6y ago
That's why we also should use a bartering system to keep things in check, just like how societies survived for thousands of years. I'm not claiming to understand the whole machine, however, we know for certain there are rotten practices that make the machine unstable and also much more difficult to understand. Interest and usury are at the core, along with other things that are prohibited by Islam (e.g. selling things that you don't own and several more). Once those are removed, the system will become much more stable, fair, and better off for everyone.