5 ms·

I was really on the author's side till I read these responses. Initially in my head it was just a case of misunderstanding or ignorance, but through her letters

I was really on the author's side till I read these responses. Initially in my head it was just a case of misunderstanding or ignorance, but through her letters she has made clear that she thinks it is significant enough. This is borne out by her tone which is palpatably aggressive and contradictory at some points. She says she didn't publish this model for glory, but she also named it after herself. Also, no effort was made to connect it to already known elementary mathematics. And I don't understand why people would need a citation instead of just saying its calculated using the trapezoidal rule. The whole point about model vs formula is IMO pathetic, models are not just bunch of known formulas. They are supposed to give a new understanding of the system (also who brings up Marriam Webbster in a medical journal? Even in letters it sounds incredibly condescending).

hatmatrix 6y ago
> And I don't understand why people would need a citation instead of just saying its calculated using the trapezoidal rule. They didn't know the trapezoidal rule.
- kgwgk 6y ago
  If they didn't they couldn't have used it and they wouldn't have needed a citation either. The point is that the "because the investigators were unable to cite an unpublished work, I submitted it for publication at their request" justification doesn't make much sense. She could have just explained to them that no citation was needed for something so trivial.
  - curryst 6y ago
    > The point is that the "because the investigators were unable to cite an unpublished work, I submitted it for publication at their request" justification doesn't make much sense. She could have just explained to them that no citation was needed for something so trivial. I can see how if you were unaware, and several colleagues in your field were unaware, it might be good to include some kind of external information about the thing. I can also see why you might not want to link to Wikipedia. I do think writing a medical article about it for people to link to is silly. Surely if you wanted a citation, you could just cite a math textbook.
- pfortuny 6y ago
  Well, yes, but if you need a citation for Gaussian elimination, the problem is yours, not anyone else's.
opaque 6y ago
> She says she didn't publish this model for glory, but she also named it after herself. She didn't name it after herself, the users did: > collegues ... began using it and addressed it as "Tai's formula" As is typically the way with eponymous scientific works, people citing the work add the author's name e.g. Maxwell's equations or Higgs' boson. The author doesn't typically declare "I have discovered X, which I shall call ${self.name}"
- ghostwriter 6y ago
  There's huge difference in significance though. Maxwell's equations have their distinctive name because he did discover a missing piece in a system (set) of equations that had been known before as separate phenomena and yet weren't used as a whole. The missing piece he discovered on paper, with a pure logical reasoning alone, that would bring consistency to the set of the equations, was later identified and confirmed as electromagnetic fields in reality.
- EvgeniyZh 6y ago
  > people citing the work add the author's name e.g. Maxwell's equations or Higgs' boson. I don't think this rule applies here, because the paper introducing "Tai's rule" calls it "Tai's rule" rather than others citing it. As if Higgs called it Higgs' boson in his paper.
- zucker42 6y ago
  She used the name "Tai's model" in the original paper.[1] I would consider that naming the method after herself. [1] (PDF link https://math.berkeley.edu/~ehallman/math1B/TaisMethod.pdf https://math.berkeley.edu/~ehallman/math1B/TaisMethod.pdf
  - shawnz 6y ago
    The quote in the post above indicates that the name was in use before the paper was published.
    - newswasboring 6y ago
bitL 6y ago
> She says she didn't publish this model for glory, but she also named it after herself. Aren't many Nobel Prizes in Economics done like that? Take some well-known math/physics formula, rename variables to make them represent some economic quantities, name the resulting formula after oneself, publish, get the prize?
- tjs8rj 6y ago
  Any examples? Not something I've ever noticed but would love to read about.
  - tacon 6y ago
    I think the Black-Scholes option pricing model reapplied a well known result from neutron transport in nuclear engineering.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jjk166 6y ago
      Both the Black-Scholes formula and the Neutron Transport Equation are instances of the heat equation, which describes a wide variety of different phenomena.
- newswasboring 6y ago
  > rename variables to make them represent some economic quantities You cannot trivialize this step. Most people's job in data analysis is basically this. Figuring out what quantity fits where in the formula _is_ the research. edit: To make it clear, it would have been fine if here model explained something using trapezoidal formula. But she seems to be claiming the formula, not a model.

hatmatrix 6y ago

> And I don't understand why people would need a citation instead of just saying its calculated using the trapezoidal rule. They didn't know the trapezoidal rule.

kgwgk 6y ago
If they didn't they couldn't have used it and they wouldn't have needed a citation either. The point is that the "because the investigators were unable to cite an unpublished work, I submitted it for publication at their request" justification doesn't make much sense. She could have just explained to them that no citation was needed for something so trivial.
- curryst 6y ago
  > The point is that the "because the investigators were unable to cite an unpublished work, I submitted it for publication at their request" justification doesn't make much sense. She could have just explained to them that no citation was needed for something so trivial. I can see how if you were unaware, and several colleagues in your field were unaware, it might be good to include some kind of external information about the thing. I can also see why you might not want to link to Wikipedia. I do think writing a medical article about it for people to link to is silly. Surely if you wanted a citation, you could just cite a math textbook.
pfortuny 6y ago
Well, yes, but if you need a citation for Gaussian elimination, the problem is yours, not anyone else's.

opaque 6y ago

> She says she didn't publish this model for glory, but she also named it after herself. She didn't name it after herself, the users did: > collegues ... began using it and addressed it as "Tai's formula" As is typically the way with eponymous scientific works, people citing the work add the author's name e.g. Maxwell's equations or Higgs' boson. The author doesn't typically declare "I have discovered X, which I shall call ${self.name}"

ghostwriter 6y ago
There's huge difference in significance though. Maxwell's equations have their distinctive name because he did discover a missing piece in a system (set) of equations that had been known before as separate phenomena and yet weren't used as a whole. The missing piece he discovered on paper, with a pure logical reasoning alone, that would bring consistency to the set of the equations, was later identified and confirmed as electromagnetic fields in reality.
EvgeniyZh 6y ago
> people citing the work add the author's name e.g. Maxwell's equations or Higgs' boson. I don't think this rule applies here, because the paper introducing "Tai's rule" calls it "Tai's rule" rather than others citing it. As if Higgs called it Higgs' boson in his paper.
zucker42 6y ago
She used the name "Tai's model" in the original paper.[1] I would consider that naming the method after herself. [1] (PDF link https://math.berkeley.edu/~ehallman/math1B/TaisMethod.pdf https://math.berkeley.edu/~ehallman/math1B/TaisMethod.pdf
- shawnz 6y ago
  The quote in the post above indicates that the name was in use before the paper was published.
  - newswasboring 6y ago

bitL 6y ago

> She says she didn't publish this model for glory, but she also named it after herself. Aren't many Nobel Prizes in Economics done like that? Take some well-known math/physics formula, rename variables to make them represent some economic quantities, name the resulting formula after oneself, publish, get the prize?

tjs8rj 6y ago
Any examples? Not something I've ever noticed but would love to read about.
- tacon 6y ago
  I think the Black-Scholes option pricing model reapplied a well known result from neutron transport in nuclear engineering.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jjk166 6y ago
    Both the Black-Scholes formula and the Neutron Transport Equation are instances of the heat equation, which describes a wide variety of different phenomena.
newswasboring 6y ago
> rename variables to make them represent some economic quantities You cannot trivialize this step. Most people's job in data analysis is basically this. Figuring out what quantity fits where in the formula _is_ the research. edit: To make it clear, it would have been fine if here model explained something using trapezoidal formula. But she seems to be claiming the formula, not a model.