6 ms·

A married couple was in a car when the wife turned to her husband and asked, "Would you like to stop for a coffee?" "No, thanks," he answered truthfully. So th

A married couple was in a car when the wife turned to her husband and asked, "Would you like to stop for a coffee?" "No, thanks," he answered truthfully. So they didn't stop. The result? The wife, who had indeed wanted to stop, became annoyed because she felt her preference had not been considered. The husband, seeing his wife was angry, became frustrated. Why didn't she just say what she wanted? Unfortunately, he failed to see that his wife was asking the question not to get an instant decision, but to begin a negotiation. And the woman didn't realize that when her husband said no, he was just expressing his preference, not making a ruling. When a man and woman interpret the same interchange in such conflicting ways, it's no wonder they can find themselves leveling angry charges of selfishness and obstinacy at each other. As a specialist in linguistics, I have studied how the conversational styles of men and women differ. We cannot lump all men or all women into fixed categories. But the seemingly senseless misunderstandings that haunt our relationships can in part be explained by the different conversational rules by which men and women play. -- Deborah Tannen "Can't We Talk?" (condensed from: You Just Don't Understand) https://web.archive.org/web/20090707084209/http://raysweb.net/poems/articles/tannen.html https://web.archive.org/web/20090707084209/http://raysweb.ne...

everdrive 6y ago
This happens enough in my relationship that I’ve got a standard response for it: Her: “Do you want to stop for coffee?” Me: “Do YOU want to stop for coffee?” Not revolutionary or anything, it was one of the first linguistic quirks we discovered.
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  But don't you already know the answer to that question, since that's how she talks? Seems like you could just say "Yes", "No, but we can get coffee if you want." or "No, I'd rather not stop."
  - everdrive 6y ago
    Well, yes, of course. The point is to get her to actually ask.
    - statstutor 6y ago
      But why insist that she asks directly? If you already understand that's what she wants? As a sibling comment suggests, this seems like a power move.
      - everdrive 6y ago
        By all means, take a different tact in your own marriage. This just works for us.
      - uglycoyote 6y ago
        Yes it is a move of insisting that his wife take more power. I think it is very noble.
        statstutor 6y ago
        The commenter's wife is not a child. She has communicated her wish in a way which is already clearly understood. I don't understand why that is deemed insufficient communication. So, she gets a mild reproach if she makes an indirect ask. I wonder, what reaction does she get whenever she makes a direct ask? (Not necessarily in this situation, but also in other and past experiences in her life)
        horsawlarway 6y ago
        Can we just agree neither of them are children and they're fine to communicate how they see fit - It's their marriage? You can't boil other folk's relationships down to your preferences, and what you're expressing here feels a lot more like personal projection than anything that OP said.
        mlyle 6y ago
        Not OP, but: When I notice my wife indirectly advocating for something in a way that I barely pick up on, I try to let her know that it would be appreciated if she'd ask more directly. Why? Because it lightens my cognitive load, and lessens the chances that I'm missing other times that she's expressing a preference. And, besides, she is smart and deserves to be heard, and I know other people (men) are not listening as carefully for these cues as I am. It's also "hilarious" when things go wrong the other way, and I interpret something that's just meant to be a question about preference as a serious ask to do something.
emilfihlman 6y ago
Another thing to notice here is the author being much more lenient on the woman in the story than the man. The man FAILED, couldn't deliver, while the woman merely didn't realize, made a misunderstanding. Communication is hard.
- narag 6y ago
  Also why didn't she follow up with "well, I do" and see what would happen? Is it better to shut up and blame communication style? Is shutting your mouth and getting angry a communication style?
  - endisneigh 6y ago
    Sadly, yes.
  - 177tcca 6y ago
    Is it flaming if I point out you're probably not American while being one?
    - narag 6y ago
      Spot on, I've never been to that side of the pond, mate :P
  - Dirlewanger 6y ago
    >Is shutting your mouth and getting angry a communication style? Women have this done to an exact science.
  - mlyle 6y ago
    When the wife believes that you've deliberately declared that no, she can't have coffee, seemingly the only choice available is to escalate to a dispute. A fairly big part of the population, mostly female, are taught to be unassuming and meek-- to indirectly ask, to accept the decisions of others, not rock the boat, etc. If you spend your youth in this mode, it becomes something that's difficult to overcome as an adult.
WA 6y ago
> can in part be explained by the different conversational rules by which men and women play Does the same kind of conversation happen in gay relationships as well? Because I think the 'men are like this and women like that' thing is kinda contrived and I bet that it has less to do with gender, but with some kind of power dynamic and the closeness of romantic relationships. Edit: As a small experiment: Whenever you read some article about advice for men or women specifically, try to substitute it with a power relationship: the person with more power or the person with less power. I think this makes a lot more sense in many ways. Note though that power can change in an instant depending on the circumstances.
- throwanem 6y ago
  > Does the same kind of conversation happen in gay relationships as well? Oh, certainly.
- SamBam 6y ago
  I don't think the paragraph quoted was implying that all men and all women converse in this way, merely that in the author's experience they tend to. Probably if you divided the data further, by sexual orientation and upbringing, cultural background, and power-relationships you could find more nuanced distinctions, although probably recognizing such conversational styles is already so subjective that trying to divide the groups finely would lead to their being no more observable differences. I think that there are some average conversational differences based on gender, although the bell curves are probably so overlapping that it's almost meaningless to try and apply it to any individual case.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  >the person with more power or the person with less power. Or more accurately, the hardtalking pushy one full of bravado and the sensitive one that communicates in implications and minute expressions. If you're full enough of bravado, everyone you meet will be comparatively sensitive irrespective of gender. If you're sensitive enough everyone you meet will seem bossy. Just look at those Meyers-Briggs subreddits for the, uhh, I forget which ones correspond to this, but they're full of people complaining about how virtually everyone they meet is trying to steamroll them.
danaris 6y ago
This is also indicative of a divide that my family has been trying to work on recognizing in ourselves recently: that between "Ask Culture" and "Guess Culture". This isn't a perfect example of it, but I believe it falls into the category. "Ask Culture" is all about being direct, straightforward, and generally fairly literal. The husband is demonstrating this when he simply answers the question his wife asks. "Guess Culture" is exemplified by indirect ways of communicating information, commonly to avoid risking giving offense. The wife is demonstrating it when she attempts to use her question to her husband as a roundabout way of indicating her own desires. These aren't gendered in any significant way. To some extent, they're regionalized, but in my experience they're also very much a product of one's particular family/friend groups—and, to further confuse the issue, they're not entirely binary, as individuals can be very "ask" in one context but "guess" in another, generally switching subconsciously.
- nlawalker 6y ago
  "Ask vs. Guess Culture" is something everyone should read about! https://www.google.com/search?q=ask+vs+guess+culture https://www.google.com/search?q=ask+vs+guess+culture
NoSorryCannot 6y ago
In linguistics, these kinds of implicatures (e.g. Can you pass the salt?) are called pragmatics. Sometimes people like to play dumb but with rare exception they do understand what is being implied. This can be irritating.
- pimlottc 6y ago
  Thanks for this example! It’s interesting to compare these two questions: - “Can you pass the salt?” - “Would you like to stop for coffee?” Neither is explicitly a direct request, but somehow the salt one is more clear than the other —- for me. It just shows how different social conventions and expectations can play into one’s understanding.
  - account42 6y ago
    > Neither is explicitly a direct request, but somehow the salt one is more clear than the other —- for me. It just shows how different social conventions and expectations can play into one’s understanding. The difference is that for the second one the literal interpretation is not an unreasonable question whereas for the first, the fact that you can pass the salt should be given.
anoncake 6y ago
How can you interpret "No, thanks" as a ruling? Doesn't the thanks part imply you're rejecting an offer, not refusing a request?

everdrive 6y ago

This happens enough in my relationship that I’ve got a standard response for it: Her: “Do you want to stop for coffee?” Me: “Do YOU want to stop for coffee?” Not revolutionary or anything, it was one of the first linguistic quirks we discovered.

travisjungroth 6y ago
But don't you already know the answer to that question, since that's how she talks? Seems like you could just say "Yes", "No, but we can get coffee if you want." or "No, I'd rather not stop."
- everdrive 6y ago
  Well, yes, of course. The point is to get her to actually ask.
  - statstutor 6y ago
    But why insist that she asks directly? If you already understand that's what she wants? As a sibling comment suggests, this seems like a power move.
    - everdrive 6y ago
      By all means, take a different tact in your own marriage. This just works for us.
    - uglycoyote 6y ago
      Yes it is a move of insisting that his wife take more power. I think it is very noble.
      - statstutor 6y ago
        The commenter's wife is not a child. She has communicated her wish in a way which is already clearly understood. I don't understand why that is deemed insufficient communication. So, she gets a mild reproach if she makes an indirect ask. I wonder, what reaction does she get whenever she makes a direct ask? (Not necessarily in this situation, but also in other and past experiences in her life)
        horsawlarway 6y ago
        Can we just agree neither of them are children and they're fine to communicate how they see fit - It's their marriage? You can't boil other folk's relationships down to your preferences, and what you're expressing here feels a lot more like personal projection than anything that OP said.
        mlyle 6y ago
        Not OP, but: When I notice my wife indirectly advocating for something in a way that I barely pick up on, I try to let her know that it would be appreciated if she'd ask more directly. Why? Because it lightens my cognitive load, and lessens the chances that I'm missing other times that she's expressing a preference. And, besides, she is smart and deserves to be heard, and I know other people (men) are not listening as carefully for these cues as I am. It's also "hilarious" when things go wrong the other way, and I interpret something that's just meant to be a question about preference as a serious ask to do something.

emilfihlman 6y ago

Another thing to notice here is the author being much more lenient on the woman in the story than the man. The man FAILED, couldn't deliver, while the woman merely didn't realize, made a misunderstanding. Communication is hard.

narag 6y ago
Also why didn't she follow up with "well, I do" and see what would happen? Is it better to shut up and blame communication style? Is shutting your mouth and getting angry a communication style?
- endisneigh 6y ago
  Sadly, yes.
- 177tcca 6y ago
  Is it flaming if I point out you're probably not American while being one?
  - narag 6y ago
    Spot on, I've never been to that side of the pond, mate :P
- Dirlewanger 6y ago
  >Is shutting your mouth and getting angry a communication style? Women have this done to an exact science.
- mlyle 6y ago
  When the wife believes that you've deliberately declared that no, she can't have coffee, seemingly the only choice available is to escalate to a dispute. A fairly big part of the population, mostly female, are taught to be unassuming and meek-- to indirectly ask, to accept the decisions of others, not rock the boat, etc. If you spend your youth in this mode, it becomes something that's difficult to overcome as an adult.

WA 6y ago

> can in part be explained by the different conversational rules by which men and women play Does the same kind of conversation happen in gay relationships as well? Because I think the 'men are like this and women like that' thing is kinda contrived and I bet that it has less to do with gender, but with some kind of power dynamic and the closeness of romantic relationships. Edit: As a small experiment: Whenever you read some article about advice for men or women specifically, try to substitute it with a power relationship: the person with more power or the person with less power. I think this makes a lot more sense in many ways. Note though that power can change in an instant depending on the circumstances.

throwanem 6y ago
> Does the same kind of conversation happen in gay relationships as well? Oh, certainly.
SamBam 6y ago
I don't think the paragraph quoted was implying that all men and all women converse in this way, merely that in the author's experience they tend to. Probably if you divided the data further, by sexual orientation and upbringing, cultural background, and power-relationships you could find more nuanced distinctions, although probably recognizing such conversational styles is already so subjective that trying to divide the groups finely would lead to their being no more observable differences. I think that there are some average conversational differences based on gender, although the bell curves are probably so overlapping that it's almost meaningless to try and apply it to any individual case.
whatshisface 6y ago
>the person with more power or the person with less power. Or more accurately, the hardtalking pushy one full of bravado and the sensitive one that communicates in implications and minute expressions. If you're full enough of bravado, everyone you meet will be comparatively sensitive irrespective of gender. If you're sensitive enough everyone you meet will seem bossy. Just look at those Meyers-Briggs subreddits for the, uhh, I forget which ones correspond to this, but they're full of people complaining about how virtually everyone they meet is trying to steamroll them.

danaris 6y ago

This is also indicative of a divide that my family has been trying to work on recognizing in ourselves recently: that between "Ask Culture" and "Guess Culture". This isn't a perfect example of it, but I believe it falls into the category. "Ask Culture" is all about being direct, straightforward, and generally fairly literal. The husband is demonstrating this when he simply answers the question his wife asks. "Guess Culture" is exemplified by indirect ways of communicating information, commonly to avoid risking giving offense. The wife is demonstrating it when she attempts to use her question to her husband as a roundabout way of indicating her own desires. These aren't gendered in any significant way. To some extent, they're regionalized, but in my experience they're also very much a product of one's particular family/friend groups—and, to further confuse the issue, they're not entirely binary, as individuals can be very "ask" in one context but "guess" in another, generally switching subconsciously.

nlawalker 6y ago
"Ask vs. Guess Culture" is something everyone should read about! https://www.google.com/search?q=ask+vs+guess+culture https://www.google.com/search?q=ask+vs+guess+culture

NoSorryCannot 6y ago

In linguistics, these kinds of implicatures (e.g. Can you pass the salt?) are called pragmatics. Sometimes people like to play dumb but with rare exception they do understand what is being implied. This can be irritating.

pimlottc 6y ago
Thanks for this example! It’s interesting to compare these two questions: - “Can you pass the salt?” - “Would you like to stop for coffee?” Neither is explicitly a direct request, but somehow the salt one is more clear than the other —- for me. It just shows how different social conventions and expectations can play into one’s understanding.
- account42 6y ago
  > Neither is explicitly a direct request, but somehow the salt one is more clear than the other —- for me. It just shows how different social conventions and expectations can play into one’s understanding. The difference is that for the second one the literal interpretation is not an unreasonable question whereas for the first, the fact that you can pass the salt should be given.

anoncake 6y ago

How can you interpret "No, thanks" as a ruling? Doesn't the thanks part imply you're rejecting an offer, not refusing a request?