4 ms·

> GDP as a main metric is terribly flawed On the short term it may be true. On the long term you need a strong GDP to sustain quality of life. COVID showed Eu

> GDP as a main metric is terribly flawed On the short term it may be true. On the long term you need a strong GDP to sustain quality of life. COVID showed Europeans how dependent they are from China industry and US tech. Quality of life is still an order of magnitude better than in most countries in the world but I don't believe it will remain like this ad infinitum. Most Europeans know that Europe is declining and sinking slowly.

colinb 6y ago
Oh for goodness sakes. I don't know where you're writing this from, but Europe a is a big place. And lots of it is doing reasonably well - modulo lock-downs. I'm not convinced at all that Europe is declining, though I am convinced that China and India are rising (as they bloody well should after the horrible history Europe has given them in recent centuries) though I'm worried that this isn't accompanied by a freer, fairer society in those places, just a richer one. Being richer is a good thing of course; freedom being of limited value to a starving child. Which leads me to ask what your basis for comparison is? Because I've lived in wealthy parts of the US - much wealthier than anywhere I've lived in Europe - and seen streets paved with metaphorical gold, but I've visited plenty of places in the US that seemed pretty backward, poor, soaked in ignorance and hopelessly broken. When 2 million people in the richest country in the world don't have indoor plumbing then something is wrong with that country's measure of wealth.
- galfarragem 6y ago
  > I don't know where you're writing this from, but Europe a is a big place. I know that Eastern Europe is "killing it" regionally by a mix of good policies, EU funding and geoarbitrage - I've lived there - but European Union as whole is slowly declining. Yes, we are still the world leader on lifestyle and culture - I don't want to create roots anywhere else - but I don't believe this will be enough to guarantee a bright future for my children.
  - mantas 6y ago
    So far it feels like Western europe is becoming a fashion house / museum / resort / rich oligarchs clubhouse for the rest of the world. Which, while may sustain high enough living standards for them for some time, looks tragic to say the least. 10 years ago I'd have said Eastern European spirit may turn the ship around. But today I'm not so sure. It feels like too many people got comfy enough and sign off on Western's idea. The sad part is that we're still pretty poor and that comfiness will be gone even faster. Both in terms of wealth and geopolitics.
    - piva00 6y ago
      > 10 years ago I'd have said Eastern European spirit may turn the ship around. But today I'm not so sure. It feels like too many people got comfy enough and sign off on Western's idea. Is this code for calling West Europe lazy? I surely can't make much sense of what you mean with this phrasing.
  - dragonelite 6y ago
    I have come to the conclusion that western Europe's next year is either the same as this year or a bit shittier. Its a bleak outlook, while my mom came from Asia, I'm actually thinking of moving back to Asia, given I'm not rooted yet. All I really see is Europe becoming hotel Europe for rich Americans and Asians. I'm pretty sure in Asia they see next year will be better then this year. I can see it in my own family members back in Asia. They went from generational housing to each uncle and auntie having their own house, nieces and nephews having finished college or university able to afford a better life style then my aunties and uncles could. While I see my little brother and many others struggling to afford a good enough place to buy or rent because of the fucked up housing markets back here in western Europe.
    - mantas 6y ago
      That's the general feel I get talking to older Westerner europeans. Be it 80s or 90s or 00s or nowadays... Life is good as usual, but relatively it feels worse because you're no longer that rich compared to others. And working class experience seems to be declining due to offshoring etc. Meanwhile in Eastern europe is as you describe Asia. My parents live tremendously better than their parents. I live better than my parents. And I'm positive my kid will live better than I do. After that... Fingers crossed I'll see the trend going strong. And that's in pretty much any socioeconomic class. While wealth gap is growing since Soviet era, the poor are living better than Soviet era elite. Both in terms of necessities and leisure.
- mantas 6y ago
  As an eastern european, it does feel like western europe is sinking. West seem to be fucking over their citizens. On the other hand, this gives a chance for East and Asia to raise faster. But ceiling is getting lower and lower. Anecdata observations is East (and Asia) is slowly rising, but difference to West is shrinking much faster.
  - piva00 6y ago
    As a non-native but naturalised Western European, I'd like to know more what you are talking about sinking and decline here. On another post [0] you state: > "10 years ago I'd have said Eastern European spirit may turn the ship around. But today I'm not so sure. It feels like too many people got comfy enough and sign off on Western's idea." And this is a pretty strange statement, calling on something like "Eastern European spirit" to turn something around, and getting "comfy" as a "sign off on Western's idea", both of which you don't describe what you mean with. Do you care to expand on those points? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26384325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26384325
    - mantas 6y ago
      Eastern Europe was super hungry in 90s. Sort of like picturesque US startups? Give us a hope and we'll work 24/7 to achieve the impossible. Meanwhile Western Europe. Feels much more.. complacent? if that's the right word. Looking from the East, West looks like smug underachievers riding on forefathers' fame.
      - piva00 6y ago
        So it's code for saying that Eastern Europeans work hard and Westerners are lazy... Look, I came from Brazil, working 10-12h/day was common for most of my 10 years career there. It doesn't bring prosperity, it doesn't get rewarded, working hard and not taking breaks is no measure of success. As much as you think this is the way to emulate because of US's wealth I'd say to think again about this bold assumption, you are being extremely reductionist and topping it off with some xenophobia. I don't like it.
wastholm 6y ago
> COVID showed Europeans how dependent they are from China industry and US tech. I absolutely agree with you here. > Most Europeans know that Europe is declining and sinking slowly. Sorry, you lost me here. Outside of the nationalist far right, I never hear people saying anything of the sort. How are we "declining and sinking"?
- dsnr 6y ago
  > Outside of the nationalist far right, I never hear people saying anything of the sort. How are we "declining and sinking"? You don’t have to be a far-right nationalist in order to have an objective look at the situation in EU, although I understand your temptation to resort to such low-effort arguments, it’s fashionable after all. As a non far-right European, the EU is falling behind by failing to drive any tech innovation, by relying on non-EU countries for vaccine production, by not importing any external tech talent by having extremely unattractive wages in the tech sector. Every major tech innovation happened outside of EU, and this is something I’m not proud about. If your only metric for success is having decent public healthcare and social benefits, then I guess EU is doing fine, but I’m skeptical this will do us any good in the long run.
  - piva00 6y ago
    A lot of tech innovation happened in the EU, the issue is that companies are acquired by the major players as a way to curb competition or acquihire a good team. The issue with tech in the EU has more to do with how different markets are across the Union, not the lack of innovation. Language barriers, cultural barriers and economical barriers are all more varied in the EU than in a market such as the US or China, it's a uniquely European issue on having such large variance in a single market. What is the metric you are using to gauge innovation in tech in the EU?
    - candiodari 6y ago
      The first COVID vaccine, Pfizer-BioNTech ... was developed within Pfizer in the EU (Germany to be exact). The part that made it work, a lipid envelope that keeps the thing running at non cryogenic temperatures, doesn't sound very impressive (though it is), is a Belgian company (Dutch, although I believe located in the French part of the country). This vaccine, aside from (part of) it's financing is very much European ...

colinb 6y ago

Oh for goodness sakes. I don't know where you're writing this from, but Europe a is a big place. And lots of it is doing reasonably well - modulo lock-downs. I'm not convinced at all that Europe is declining, though I am convinced that China and India are rising (as they bloody well should after the horrible history Europe has given them in recent centuries) though I'm worried that this isn't accompanied by a freer, fairer society in those places, just a richer one. Being richer is a good thing of course; freedom being of limited value to a starving child. Which leads me to ask what your basis for comparison is? Because I've lived in wealthy parts of the US - much wealthier than anywhere I've lived in Europe - and seen streets paved with metaphorical gold, but I've visited plenty of places in the US that seemed pretty backward, poor, soaked in ignorance and hopelessly broken. When 2 million people in the richest country in the world don't have indoor plumbing then something is wrong with that country's measure of wealth.

galfarragem 6y ago
> I don't know where you're writing this from, but Europe a is a big place. I know that Eastern Europe is "killing it" regionally by a mix of good policies, EU funding and geoarbitrage - I've lived there - but European Union as whole is slowly declining. Yes, we are still the world leader on lifestyle and culture - I don't want to create roots anywhere else - but I don't believe this will be enough to guarantee a bright future for my children.
- mantas 6y ago
  So far it feels like Western europe is becoming a fashion house / museum / resort / rich oligarchs clubhouse for the rest of the world. Which, while may sustain high enough living standards for them for some time, looks tragic to say the least. 10 years ago I'd have said Eastern European spirit may turn the ship around. But today I'm not so sure. It feels like too many people got comfy enough and sign off on Western's idea. The sad part is that we're still pretty poor and that comfiness will be gone even faster. Both in terms of wealth and geopolitics.
  - piva00 6y ago
    > 10 years ago I'd have said Eastern European spirit may turn the ship around. But today I'm not so sure. It feels like too many people got comfy enough and sign off on Western's idea. Is this code for calling West Europe lazy? I surely can't make much sense of what you mean with this phrasing.
- dragonelite 6y ago
  I have come to the conclusion that western Europe's next year is either the same as this year or a bit shittier. Its a bleak outlook, while my mom came from Asia, I'm actually thinking of moving back to Asia, given I'm not rooted yet. All I really see is Europe becoming hotel Europe for rich Americans and Asians. I'm pretty sure in Asia they see next year will be better then this year. I can see it in my own family members back in Asia. They went from generational housing to each uncle and auntie having their own house, nieces and nephews having finished college or university able to afford a better life style then my aunties and uncles could. While I see my little brother and many others struggling to afford a good enough place to buy or rent because of the fucked up housing markets back here in western Europe.
  - mantas 6y ago
    That's the general feel I get talking to older Westerner europeans. Be it 80s or 90s or 00s or nowadays... Life is good as usual, but relatively it feels worse because you're no longer that rich compared to others. And working class experience seems to be declining due to offshoring etc. Meanwhile in Eastern europe is as you describe Asia. My parents live tremendously better than their parents. I live better than my parents. And I'm positive my kid will live better than I do. After that... Fingers crossed I'll see the trend going strong. And that's in pretty much any socioeconomic class. While wealth gap is growing since Soviet era, the poor are living better than Soviet era elite. Both in terms of necessities and leisure.
mantas 6y ago
As an eastern european, it does feel like western europe is sinking. West seem to be fucking over their citizens. On the other hand, this gives a chance for East and Asia to raise faster. But ceiling is getting lower and lower. Anecdata observations is East (and Asia) is slowly rising, but difference to West is shrinking much faster.
- piva00 6y ago
  As a non-native but naturalised Western European, I'd like to know more what you are talking about sinking and decline here. On another post [0] you state: > "10 years ago I'd have said Eastern European spirit may turn the ship around. But today I'm not so sure. It feels like too many people got comfy enough and sign off on Western's idea." And this is a pretty strange statement, calling on something like "Eastern European spirit" to turn something around, and getting "comfy" as a "sign off on Western's idea", both of which you don't describe what you mean with. Do you care to expand on those points? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26384325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26384325
  - mantas 6y ago
    Eastern Europe was super hungry in 90s. Sort of like picturesque US startups? Give us a hope and we'll work 24/7 to achieve the impossible. Meanwhile Western Europe. Feels much more.. complacent? if that's the right word. Looking from the East, West looks like smug underachievers riding on forefathers' fame.
    - piva00 6y ago
      So it's code for saying that Eastern Europeans work hard and Westerners are lazy... Look, I came from Brazil, working 10-12h/day was common for most of my 10 years career there. It doesn't bring prosperity, it doesn't get rewarded, working hard and not taking breaks is no measure of success. As much as you think this is the way to emulate because of US's wealth I'd say to think again about this bold assumption, you are being extremely reductionist and topping it off with some xenophobia. I don't like it.

wastholm 6y ago

> COVID showed Europeans how dependent they are from China industry and US tech. I absolutely agree with you here. > Most Europeans know that Europe is declining and sinking slowly. Sorry, you lost me here. Outside of the nationalist far right, I never hear people saying anything of the sort. How are we "declining and sinking"?

dsnr 6y ago
> Outside of the nationalist far right, I never hear people saying anything of the sort. How are we "declining and sinking"? You don’t have to be a far-right nationalist in order to have an objective look at the situation in EU, although I understand your temptation to resort to such low-effort arguments, it’s fashionable after all. As a non far-right European, the EU is falling behind by failing to drive any tech innovation, by relying on non-EU countries for vaccine production, by not importing any external tech talent by having extremely unattractive wages in the tech sector. Every major tech innovation happened outside of EU, and this is something I’m not proud about. If your only metric for success is having decent public healthcare and social benefits, then I guess EU is doing fine, but I’m skeptical this will do us any good in the long run.
- piva00 6y ago
  A lot of tech innovation happened in the EU, the issue is that companies are acquired by the major players as a way to curb competition or acquihire a good team. The issue with tech in the EU has more to do with how different markets are across the Union, not the lack of innovation. Language barriers, cultural barriers and economical barriers are all more varied in the EU than in a market such as the US or China, it's a uniquely European issue on having such large variance in a single market. What is the metric you are using to gauge innovation in tech in the EU?
  - candiodari 6y ago
    The first COVID vaccine, Pfizer-BioNTech ... was developed within Pfizer in the EU (Germany to be exact). The part that made it work, a lipid envelope that keeps the thing running at non cryogenic temperatures, doesn't sound very impressive (though it is), is a Belgian company (Dutch, although I believe located in the French part of the country). This vaccine, aside from (part of) it's financing is very much European ...