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> No european politican in power is that altruistic. Ours are in no way less crazy or corrupt than the US ones. I very much believe that Dutch politicians are

> No european politican in power is that altruistic. Ours are in no way less crazy or corrupt than the US ones. I very much believe that Dutch politicians are less corrupt than U.S.A. politicians, in no small part due to the fundamental operations of the electoral system. Donald Trump refused to yield power and flirted with a coup d'état after losing the election; around that time, the Dutch cabinet offered it's resignation peacefully to atone for a scandal it wasn't even directly responsible for, but took responsibility for as the ultimate executive. — it's quite a difference. I find Dutch politicians very much far less self-absorbed and egocentric, and I believe this is due to the U.S.A. system being a winner-takes-all system that thereby selects upon narcissistic risk takers, for to obtain any public office in the U.S.A., one must have taken a risk where one stands to leave with nothing after considerable investment, — such is not the Dutch system, which is not a winner-takes-all system but one where victory is a matter of degrees. Dutch politicians are generally quite down to earth rather than surrounded by pomp and grandeur. The prime minister goes to work by bike and has a part time job as a primary school teacher and lives in a normal apartment rather than a posh official residence, and this is because the system selects upon men who have power trusted upon them, not upon those who seek power. > Political systems are always eventually captured by the powerful and they prevent any real change because they benefit from the status quo. Europe has old corporations and the system is built to benefit them. In 1916, the Netherlands switched from a district-based system to a simple, proportional system. This change surely did not benefit the parties in power, but they did so anyway for the purpose of democracy, and probably because the voters wanted it.

mcv 6y ago
> the Dutch cabinet offered it's resignation peacefully to atone for a scandal it wasn't even directly responsible for I don't think that's true. Mark Rutte was prime minister during the escalation of the excessive fraud hunting, and has been directly involved with parts of it. He undeniably carries much of the real responsibility. He's also not a great example of a politician taking that responsibility; he has a tendency to smile problems away. That said, you're absolutely right that neither the Dutch not any other European country is anywhere near as corrupt as the US, where corruption seems to be baked deep into its political system.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  > I don't think that's true. Mark Rutte was prime minister during the escalation of the excessive fraud hunting, and has been directly involved with parts of it. He undeniably carries much of the real responsibility. What has the direct involvement been then beyond simply being the ultimate executive at the top of the chain of command? > He's also not a great example of a politician taking that responsibility; he has a tendency to smile problems away. Offering the resignation of one's cabinet is quite far from a mere smile. > That said, you're absolutely right that neither the Dutch not any other European country is anywhere near as corrupt as the US, where corruption seems to be baked deep into its political system. Any other? I daresay that there is greater corruption in many European nations.
- rapsey 6y ago
  > That said, you're absolutely right that neither the Dutch not any other European country is anywhere near as corrupt as the US, where corruption seems to be baked deep into its political system. It's not baked, it is rotten. It started with noble intentions and designs. European countries reformed mostly in the 20th century to become what they are. US has continued it's system since the funding of the republic and the rot has set in deep until now.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    I do not believe the U.S.A.'s founding to be as noble as is commonly narrated. The so celebrated “founding fathers” were rich, white, male slaveowners that tried their hardest to keep as much power for the rich, white, male, and slaveowner at the expense of all others and transparently founded an elitocracy that favored the big man over the little man, and certainly succeeded. That the U.S.A. electoral system gives disproportionate power to the elite already in power is not a fluke, but a deliberate design choice.
    - mcv 6y ago
      Compared to the absolute monarchy they rebelled against, it certainly did have some nobility. But I wonder if they were aware that their words pointed a lot further than they themselves were going. The big irony of the founding of the US is that the guy who believed it was "self-evident that all men are created equal", owned men as slaves. It's important to continue in the direction they pointed, and not stop simply at the point where they ended up in their time.
m000 6y ago
> I very much believe that Dutch politicians are less corrupt than U.S.A. politicians in no small part due to the fundamental operations of the electoral system. I believe corruption goes hand-in hand with two-party systems. This eventually results to partisan politics and loss of all accountability. The two-party system may be either de facto (e.g. USA) or emulated (e.g. Greece), but the result is still chronic corruption. > In 1916, the Netherlands switched from a district-based system to a simple, proportional system. This change surely did not benefit the parties in power, but they did so anyway for the purpose of democracy, and probably because the voters wanted it. Simple proportional systems all the way. The problem is that if you didn't do the switch early-on (like the Netherlands), then it's almost impossible to do later because of deeply vested interests. E.g. Greece attempted a switch to a simple proportional system in 2016, but the move was smeared with FUD articles by the mass-media. In the end, the current government restored the previous election system, which gives a ludicrous number of bonus parliament seats to the first party.

mcv 6y ago

> the Dutch cabinet offered it's resignation peacefully to atone for a scandal it wasn't even directly responsible for I don't think that's true. Mark Rutte was prime minister during the escalation of the excessive fraud hunting, and has been directly involved with parts of it. He undeniably carries much of the real responsibility. He's also not a great example of a politician taking that responsibility; he has a tendency to smile problems away. That said, you're absolutely right that neither the Dutch not any other European country is anywhere near as corrupt as the US, where corruption seems to be baked deep into its political system.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
> I don't think that's true. Mark Rutte was prime minister during the escalation of the excessive fraud hunting, and has been directly involved with parts of it. He undeniably carries much of the real responsibility. What has the direct involvement been then beyond simply being the ultimate executive at the top of the chain of command? > He's also not a great example of a politician taking that responsibility; he has a tendency to smile problems away. Offering the resignation of one's cabinet is quite far from a mere smile. > That said, you're absolutely right that neither the Dutch not any other European country is anywhere near as corrupt as the US, where corruption seems to be baked deep into its political system. Any other? I daresay that there is greater corruption in many European nations.
rapsey 6y ago
> That said, you're absolutely right that neither the Dutch not any other European country is anywhere near as corrupt as the US, where corruption seems to be baked deep into its political system. It's not baked, it is rotten. It started with noble intentions and designs. European countries reformed mostly in the 20th century to become what they are. US has continued it's system since the funding of the republic and the rot has set in deep until now.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  I do not believe the U.S.A.'s founding to be as noble as is commonly narrated. The so celebrated “founding fathers” were rich, white, male slaveowners that tried their hardest to keep as much power for the rich, white, male, and slaveowner at the expense of all others and transparently founded an elitocracy that favored the big man over the little man, and certainly succeeded. That the U.S.A. electoral system gives disproportionate power to the elite already in power is not a fluke, but a deliberate design choice.
  - mcv 6y ago
    Compared to the absolute monarchy they rebelled against, it certainly did have some nobility. But I wonder if they were aware that their words pointed a lot further than they themselves were going. The big irony of the founding of the US is that the guy who believed it was "self-evident that all men are created equal", owned men as slaves. It's important to continue in the direction they pointed, and not stop simply at the point where they ended up in their time.

m000 6y ago

> I very much believe that Dutch politicians are less corrupt than U.S.A. politicians in no small part due to the fundamental operations of the electoral system. I believe corruption goes hand-in hand with two-party systems. This eventually results to partisan politics and loss of all accountability. The two-party system may be either de facto (e.g. USA) or emulated (e.g. Greece), but the result is still chronic corruption. > In 1916, the Netherlands switched from a district-based system to a simple, proportional system. This change surely did not benefit the parties in power, but they did so anyway for the purpose of democracy, and probably because the voters wanted it. Simple proportional systems all the way. The problem is that if you didn't do the switch early-on (like the Netherlands), then it's almost impossible to do later because of deeply vested interests. E.g. Greece attempted a switch to a simple proportional system in 2016, but the move was smeared with FUD articles by the mass-media. In the end, the current government restored the previous election system, which gives a ludicrous number of bonus parliament seats to the first party.