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You can't honestly believe that, can you? Germany - senior software engineer - 45k eur. US - senior software engineer - 240k usd. Do you or the average engin

You can't honestly believe that, can you? Germany - senior software engineer - 45k eur. US - senior software engineer - 240k usd. Do you or the average engineer, over the course of their lifetime, save or spend around 190k usd a year on healthcare?

hans_castorp 6y ago
> Germany - senior software engineer - 45k eur. That's utter nonsense. 45K € is the salary of a junior software dev right out of university.
- alexgmcm 6y ago
  He's taken a low-end salary but take 80k euros or even 90k and his argument still applies.
  - hans_castorp 6y ago
    For a senior dev 90k is the low-end, not the average I would say. But this highly depends on where you are in Germany. In Munich or Hamburg salaries will be substantially higher than e.g. Ludwigshafen or Cottbus
rusk 6y ago
I’m just telling you what I was told. I didn’t take the job in the end because some of the clauses in the contract - apparently normal by US standards - were simply astounding.
yulaow 6y ago
240k in the whole US? I thought those were salaries of high col areas (new york, sv, etc)
silvester23 6y ago
45k eur? Senior software engineers in Germany make about twice that. It's still a big difference to US salaries but let's not get carried away here with lowballing the EU salaries.
andruby 6y ago
Is that US number the US average or specific to FAANG in California? Update: this post [0] mentions $110K for the US average, $60K for Germany (and $95K for Switzerland, $72K for Denmark). [0] https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/it-salaries-software-developer-trends https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/it-salaries-sof...
- oblio 6y ago
  It's no the US average. > The average salary for a Software Engineer is $110125 per year in United States https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries
oblio 6y ago
Your numbers are way off. A US senior software engineer making that much would live in a major tech center and would probably work for a very good company, so a lot of people are excluded because of location and others just because of selection. It's hard to say, but I can't imagine more than 30-50% of US senior software engineer making that much. And for Germany, the salary for a senior software engineer is not that low :-)) A senior software engineer in Romania or Ukraine would be making that much (while living in less developed countries with much lower cost of living). The only way their salary would be so low in Germany would be if they would be working for a crap company in a small city. So you're not comparing apples to apples. However the general point can be right as I'd say that the correct number for the us would be more around $150k and the correct number for Germany would be around $90k. So you'd still have a $60k gap.
- i_have_an_idea 6y ago
  > A US senior software engineer making that much would live in a major tech center and would probably work for a very good company, so a lot of people are excluded because of location and others just because of selection. It's hard to say, but I can't imagine more than 30-50% of US senior software engineer making that much. Well, in Germany, a software engineer making that much simply does not exist..
- cm277 6y ago
  Agreed. Also what both are missing is the cost to company difference (the 'wedge' in economics-speak). In the US that's ~15% on top of the salaries you two mention above, even with health insurance added. For FAANG, with extra perks, etc, it could go to 20%. In the EU the wedge starts at 25% and goes up from there (to 40%+ in some countries for high incomes). So, the difference between the two countries is about ~20-25% on a cost-to-company basis (which is what employers care about). That can be easily justified by a better talent pool (attracted by the higher salaries), economies of scale in training, managing, etc. Not a massive deal. Also, helps a lot when you are a FAANG, literally the most profitable companies in the history of humanity (i.e. under-regulated as hell). Source: software employer (not FAANG) in both the US/EU.
littlestymaar 6y ago
> Germany - senior software engineer - 45k eur. You mean, in a rural town of the former DDR right?
riffraff 6y ago
I don't think the differece lies in healthcare costs, but this exmple is silly, and average SSE in the US does not earn 240k USD. Silicon Valley is an outlier even in the US.
dtech 6y ago
45k? Maybe in a rural area but in Berlin it's 3-4x as much
- akie 6y ago
  I'm sorry, I'm a senior developer in Berlin and I've never seen job openings that average 135k - 180k. Can you send me an example? Because if that's the actual range these days I might consider giving up freelancing.
- wreath 6y ago
  What companies in berlin do pay 3-4x 45k per year? I think 45k is for a junior dev (or some immigrant experienced dev who didn't negotiate due to lack of knowledge on local market + employee taking advantage of that), but 3-4x that is an exaggeration.
mkl95 6y ago
45k is what you can expect to make as a senior software engineer in countries like Italy, Spain, etc. This a pretty good salary in southern Europe but it's way below the average of countries like France and Germany.
Toutouxc 6y ago
I live next door in the Czech Republic where the salaries are generally quite a bit lower than in Germany and I'm wondering whether the 45k EUR number is accurate. Is it after taxes or before? Because I'd say that 3750 EUR per month gross is way too low for a Czech senior dev, and 3750 EUR net would be an okay-ish compensation for an experienced developer in Prague or Brno.
- jgb1984 6y ago
  I call nonsense. Show me job listings in CZ that offer salaries which makes 3750 euro gross per month seem "way too low".
  - Toutouxc 6y ago
    I don't think you'll find job many listings with 100k+ CZK written out just like that, but you can certainly get that kind of money if you ask for it. I'm a webdev in Prague and experienced people I know do have that kind of money. I only make a bit less than that and I'm a junior.
JW_00000 6y ago
You also need to account for student debt. In most EU countries, students do not need to go in debt to pay for university. So in the US, how much of those first salaries goes to paying back that debt? (It won't account for the complete difference obviously.) And maybe retirement savings is another thing to add.
ksahin 6y ago
I don't know about Germany, but in France it's very low compared to the US. Here is a study of 3600 anwsers: https://www.silkhom.com/barometre-des-salaires-2019-combien-gagnent-les-profils-tech-les-plus-recherches/ https://www.silkhom.com/barometre-des-salaires-2019-combien-... There are many other studies like these every year in France, for many different positions in tech. Here is a TLDR. A junior dev (0-2 years of experience): - Paris: 35-45k€ - Big cities: 35-40k€ - Outside of big cities: 32-38k€ A confirmed dev (3-5 years of experience): - Paris: 45-60k€ - Big cities: 40-46k€ - Outside of big cities: 38-45k€ Senior (5 years+): - Paris: 55k+€ - Big cities: 45-55k€ - Outside big cities: 45-50k€ Note that these salaries are "brut", meaning there are 23% of various taxes (income tax not included), unemployment taxes, social security, retirement etc. On top of that, France as one of the highest income tax rate in the world.
simonh 6y ago
The $240k is not for the USA as a whole, it's at best for very narrow geographical areas in Silicon valley and a handful of FAANGs. The vast majority of senior software engineers in the USA as a whole don't earn anywhere near that. If you look at say here in the UK salaries in software overall are lower than in the USA sure, but a senior dev in the finance industry in London can be very competitively compensated. Industrial sector and location make a huge difference. Finally, this all has very little to do with the E.U. or even with overall GDP growth between here and the USA. There are deep historical reasons why the tech sector particularly is concentrated in the USA. For comparison consider the prominence of the finance industry in London compared to the wider Europe, or why the car industry is concentrated in Germany. There are deep historical reasons for those too, you won't find the answers in broad economic policy in the last few decades.

hans_castorp 6y ago

> Germany - senior software engineer - 45k eur. That's utter nonsense. 45K € is the salary of a junior software dev right out of university.

alexgmcm 6y ago
He's taken a low-end salary but take 80k euros or even 90k and his argument still applies.
- hans_castorp 6y ago
  For a senior dev 90k is the low-end, not the average I would say. But this highly depends on where you are in Germany. In Munich or Hamburg salaries will be substantially higher than e.g. Ludwigshafen or Cottbus

rusk 6y ago

I’m just telling you what I was told. I didn’t take the job in the end because some of the clauses in the contract - apparently normal by US standards - were simply astounding.

yulaow 6y ago

240k in the whole US? I thought those were salaries of high col areas (new york, sv, etc)

silvester23 6y ago

45k eur? Senior software engineers in Germany make about twice that. It's still a big difference to US salaries but let's not get carried away here with lowballing the EU salaries.

andruby 6y ago

Is that US number the US average or specific to FAANG in California? Update: this post [0] mentions $110K for the US average, $60K for Germany (and $95K for Switzerland, $72K for Denmark). [0] https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/it-salaries-software-developer-trends https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/it-salaries-sof...

oblio 6y ago
It's no the US average. > The average salary for a Software Engineer is $110125 per year in United States https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries

oblio 6y ago

Your numbers are way off. A US senior software engineer making that much would live in a major tech center and would probably work for a very good company, so a lot of people are excluded because of location and others just because of selection. It's hard to say, but I can't imagine more than 30-50% of US senior software engineer making that much. And for Germany, the salary for a senior software engineer is not that low :-)) A senior software engineer in Romania or Ukraine would be making that much (while living in less developed countries with much lower cost of living). The only way their salary would be so low in Germany would be if they would be working for a crap company in a small city. So you're not comparing apples to apples. However the general point can be right as I'd say that the correct number for the us would be more around $150k and the correct number for Germany would be around $90k. So you'd still have a $60k gap.

i_have_an_idea 6y ago
> A US senior software engineer making that much would live in a major tech center and would probably work for a very good company, so a lot of people are excluded because of location and others just because of selection. It's hard to say, but I can't imagine more than 30-50% of US senior software engineer making that much. Well, in Germany, a software engineer making that much simply does not exist..
cm277 6y ago
Agreed. Also what both are missing is the cost to company difference (the 'wedge' in economics-speak). In the US that's ~15% on top of the salaries you two mention above, even with health insurance added. For FAANG, with extra perks, etc, it could go to 20%. In the EU the wedge starts at 25% and goes up from there (to 40%+ in some countries for high incomes). So, the difference between the two countries is about ~20-25% on a cost-to-company basis (which is what employers care about). That can be easily justified by a better talent pool (attracted by the higher salaries), economies of scale in training, managing, etc. Not a massive deal. Also, helps a lot when you are a FAANG, literally the most profitable companies in the history of humanity (i.e. under-regulated as hell). Source: software employer (not FAANG) in both the US/EU.

littlestymaar 6y ago

> Germany - senior software engineer - 45k eur. You mean, in a rural town of the former DDR right?

riffraff 6y ago

I don't think the differece lies in healthcare costs, but this exmple is silly, and average SSE in the US does not earn 240k USD. Silicon Valley is an outlier even in the US.

dtech 6y ago

45k? Maybe in a rural area but in Berlin it's 3-4x as much

akie 6y ago
I'm sorry, I'm a senior developer in Berlin and I've never seen job openings that average 135k - 180k. Can you send me an example? Because if that's the actual range these days I might consider giving up freelancing.
wreath 6y ago
What companies in berlin do pay 3-4x 45k per year? I think 45k is for a junior dev (or some immigrant experienced dev who didn't negotiate due to lack of knowledge on local market + employee taking advantage of that), but 3-4x that is an exaggeration.

mkl95 6y ago

45k is what you can expect to make as a senior software engineer in countries like Italy, Spain, etc. This a pretty good salary in southern Europe but it's way below the average of countries like France and Germany.

Toutouxc 6y ago

I live next door in the Czech Republic where the salaries are generally quite a bit lower than in Germany and I'm wondering whether the 45k EUR number is accurate. Is it after taxes or before? Because I'd say that 3750 EUR per month gross is way too low for a Czech senior dev, and 3750 EUR net would be an okay-ish compensation for an experienced developer in Prague or Brno.

jgb1984 6y ago
I call nonsense. Show me job listings in CZ that offer salaries which makes 3750 euro gross per month seem "way too low".
- Toutouxc 6y ago
  I don't think you'll find job many listings with 100k+ CZK written out just like that, but you can certainly get that kind of money if you ask for it. I'm a webdev in Prague and experienced people I know do have that kind of money. I only make a bit less than that and I'm a junior.

JW_00000 6y ago

You also need to account for student debt. In most EU countries, students do not need to go in debt to pay for university. So in the US, how much of those first salaries goes to paying back that debt? (It won't account for the complete difference obviously.) And maybe retirement savings is another thing to add.

ksahin 6y ago

I don't know about Germany, but in France it's very low compared to the US. Here is a study of 3600 anwsers: https://www.silkhom.com/barometre-des-salaires-2019-combien-gagnent-les-profils-tech-les-plus-recherches/ https://www.silkhom.com/barometre-des-salaires-2019-combien-... There are many other studies like these every year in France, for many different positions in tech. Here is a TLDR. A junior dev (0-2 years of experience): - Paris: 35-45k€ - Big cities: 35-40k€ - Outside of big cities: 32-38k€ A confirmed dev (3-5 years of experience): - Paris: 45-60k€ - Big cities: 40-46k€ - Outside of big cities: 38-45k€ Senior (5 years+): - Paris: 55k+€ - Big cities: 45-55k€ - Outside big cities: 45-50k€ Note that these salaries are "brut", meaning there are 23% of various taxes (income tax not included), unemployment taxes, social security, retirement etc. On top of that, France as one of the highest income tax rate in the world.

simonh 6y ago

The $240k is not for the USA as a whole, it's at best for very narrow geographical areas in Silicon valley and a handful of FAANGs. The vast majority of senior software engineers in the USA as a whole don't earn anywhere near that. If you look at say here in the UK salaries in software overall are lower than in the USA sure, but a senior dev in the finance industry in London can be very competitively compensated. Industrial sector and location make a huge difference. Finally, this all has very little to do with the E.U. or even with overall GDP growth between here and the USA. There are deep historical reasons why the tech sector particularly is concentrated in the USA. For comparison consider the prominence of the finance industry in London compared to the wider Europe, or why the car industry is concentrated in Germany. There are deep historical reasons for those too, you won't find the answers in broad economic policy in the last few decades.