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Regarding gender, there is another thing that confuses me. I was told all this time that gender is a social construct, a set of behaviors for a particular gende

by ttt0 6y ago

Regarding gender, there is another thing that confuses me. I was told all this time that gender is a social construct, a set of behaviors for a particular gender that might differ between different cultures, ie. it's not real. But reading the Wikipedia article on gender dysphoria, it says that it's a mismatch between the biological sex and gender, which was supposed to be a social construct. Are children being diagnosed with gender dysphoria just based on the fact that they don't express themselves in a way that we traditionally associate with either males or females? Do I understand it correctly?

joshspankit 6y ago
Not just “traditionally”, but there are so many differences in how society treats males vs how they treat females that most people don’t even see them any more. All the way from calling a baby in pink ‘pretty’ and a baby in blue ‘active‘ to looking to a male first when help is needed to lift something or to lead and to looking to a female first when help is needed to regulate someone’s emotions. And those are not even mentioning the far more subtle things like disapproving looks when females do or say certain things.
lsiebert 6y ago
When people talk about things as constructs, they aren't saying that they are completely artificial or fake. They are saying that our understanding of gender is a construction, built on top of human bodies which are incredibly complex and different from each other. Like if I had to pick a metaphor, as I understand things, for HN, think of it an imperfect binary classification for assigned gender at birth API, a leaky abstraction on top of society understandings that are themselves constructed the messy analog physicality of people's "biological sex" which is not as simple as two options male and female, not even just in terms of chromosomal sex. Add in hormones levels, hormone sensitivity, genetic differences, brain structures, body hair etc, and even what people think of as basic "biological sex" is actually multifaceted and variable. So in talking about gender as a construct, rather than something innate and natural and binary, it becomes possible to talk about how the API was developed, and maybe say, hey this API is a little simplistic.
- ttt0 6y ago
  I don't really agree with the biological sex thing, as the rules of how reproduction works are generally pretty straightforward and pretty much the same across most of the mammal species. But it's beside the point. My question is specifically how do we diagnose gender dysphoria. Is it just based on the fact that a person might express himself in a way that society associated with one gender or another? That would make sense to me. For what it's worth, from my observations of this community it appears to me that at the very least a significant part of self-{identified,diagnosed} transgender population seems to have an unrealistic, hypersexualized portrayal of what being a woman means, most likely influenced by pornography. But why obscure and attack the concept of biological sex then? Doesn't that only reaffirm that what we've been doing this entire time is a right thing to do? Imposing the correct gender role (or as you called it, assigning gender at birth), seems exactly like the way to go, as it lowers the chance of child developing gender dysphoria and having all the problems associated with it.
  - lsiebert 6y ago
    I suggest you read up on intersex people if you think biology is straightforward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex As for diagnostic criteria, they vary from country to country. Here's whats in the DSM 5 https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...
    - ttt0 6y ago
      Anomalies and people born with defects do not disprove the overall rule. Just like people being born with 6 fingers do not change the fact that humans have 5 finders at each hand. I'm not sure if there is a name for this type of argument, but this is a fallacy. In science virtually nothing is true 100% of the time. This is not what science is about. The second link basically confirms what I suspected.
      - lsiebert 6y ago

by ttt0 6y ago

joshspankit 6y ago

Not just “traditionally”, but there are so many differences in how society treats males vs how they treat females that most people don’t even see them any more. All the way from calling a baby in pink ‘pretty’ and a baby in blue ‘active‘ to looking to a male first when help is needed to lift something or to lead and to looking to a female first when help is needed to regulate someone’s emotions. And those are not even mentioning the far more subtle things like disapproving looks when females do or say certain things.

lsiebert 6y ago

When people talk about things as constructs, they aren't saying that they are completely artificial or fake. They are saying that our understanding of gender is a construction, built on top of human bodies which are incredibly complex and different from each other. Like if I had to pick a metaphor, as I understand things, for HN, think of it an imperfect binary classification for assigned gender at birth API, a leaky abstraction on top of society understandings that are themselves constructed the messy analog physicality of people's "biological sex" which is not as simple as two options male and female, not even just in terms of chromosomal sex. Add in hormones levels, hormone sensitivity, genetic differences, brain structures, body hair etc, and even what people think of as basic "biological sex" is actually multifaceted and variable. So in talking about gender as a construct, rather than something innate and natural and binary, it becomes possible to talk about how the API was developed, and maybe say, hey this API is a little simplistic.

ttt0 6y ago
I don't really agree with the biological sex thing, as the rules of how reproduction works are generally pretty straightforward and pretty much the same across most of the mammal species. But it's beside the point. My question is specifically how do we diagnose gender dysphoria. Is it just based on the fact that a person might express himself in a way that society associated with one gender or another? That would make sense to me. For what it's worth, from my observations of this community it appears to me that at the very least a significant part of self-{identified,diagnosed} transgender population seems to have an unrealistic, hypersexualized portrayal of what being a woman means, most likely influenced by pornography. But why obscure and attack the concept of biological sex then? Doesn't that only reaffirm that what we've been doing this entire time is a right thing to do? Imposing the correct gender role (or as you called it, assigning gender at birth), seems exactly like the way to go, as it lowers the chance of child developing gender dysphoria and having all the problems associated with it.
- lsiebert 6y ago
  I suggest you read up on intersex people if you think biology is straightforward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex As for diagnostic criteria, they vary from country to country. Here's whats in the DSM 5 https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...
  - ttt0 6y ago
    Anomalies and people born with defects do not disprove the overall rule. Just like people being born with 6 fingers do not change the fact that humans have 5 finders at each hand. I'm not sure if there is a name for this type of argument, but this is a fallacy. In science virtually nothing is true 100% of the time. This is not what science is about. The second link basically confirms what I suspected.
    - lsiebert 6y ago