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I think perhaps you're getting tripped up by the English language, which is understandable because it's annoyingly vague in this context. The words male/female

I think perhaps you're getting tripped up by the English language, which is understandable because it's annoyingly vague in this context. The words male/female can refer to either gender or biological sex. Gender means what you likely already think it does. Biological sex is what genitalia someone has (or more generally for animals as a whole whether you produce sperm or eggs). I'm not a huge fan of this term because it kinda seems to imply transgenderism is "non-biological" but it's the most commonly understood term so I use it begrudgingly. "Trans women are men" is most obviously interpreted as a transphobic statement about gender. "Trans women are biological men" is just a fact and is in no way transphobic. > Otherwise we could end online transphobia with a couple of sed scripts in a chrome extension. Words have meaning outside of analyzing their dictionary definitions or a single sentence at a time. Sed scripts cannot account for context, intent, etc. Similarly, whether or not some speech is transphobic is dependent on these factors too.

roenxi 6y ago
It is patently absurd to argue that you can accept someone as a woman and not accept it is obvious that they are feminine enough to compete in women's sports. I don't think I'm the one getting tripped up here. That is just a lot of pretend complexity to justify transphobic beliefs. It just being "facts" that determine your personal social beliefs is exactly the same sort of scientific appeal to justify bigotry that inclusive movements have been fighting for a generation. If you believe someone's genitals determine how they should be treated socially, you are being transphobic. I personally think that is a stupid standard, but that is the standard that has been set for transphobia.
- cmeacham98 6y ago
  > If you believe someone's genitals determine how they should be treated socially, you are being transphobic. I personally think that is a stupid standard, but that is the standard that has been set for transphobia. I cannot tell if you're trolling or just intentionally ignoring all the related nuance. You must understand there are some circumstances when it is acceptable to acknowledge that a trans women has a bio male body. According to this "trans women should always be treated as women in ANY context" opinion what is a doctor to do when a trans women gets prostate cancer? "Sorry, that's a man-only disease, and you're a woman, so it's impossible you have it"???
  - roenxi 6y ago
    I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out the obvious - you are espousing mildly transphobic principles and you should reassess your framework until it makes sense. Someone with a prostate having prostate cancer and needing treatment has an obvious, involuntary, cause and the person is presumably voluntarily cooperative in being treated. Thinking that it is even possibly reasonable to exclude a woman from playing womans sport because you don't believe they are womanly enough, regardless of their beliefs, is blatant transphobia. And the long pseudo-science "not men but kinda men" justification is the sort of thing bigots tried to deploy against gays, religious minorities and women in the past. That should stop. If someone is a women, and we can treat them like women, we should treat them like a woman. Ditto how humans should be treated like humans.
    - cmeacham98 6y ago
      Come on, I can easily construct a scenario where it isn't voluntary from the trans woman and is between two people, as a matter of fact I already did: > What about a situation where a cisgendered man prefers having sex with people that also have dicks? Typically, we would call this person gay, which we interpret as "men who have sex with men". However, this person would want to have sex with cis men and trans women, not because they're transphobic, but because their preference is based on the person's physical body. What are you going to say when this person declines sex with a trans women? Is that transphobia? Should they be forced to lie about why they're declining the sex? Is wanting to have sex with people with the same genitalia as you transphobic? > Thinking that it is even possibly reasonable to exclude a woman from playing womans sport because you don't believe they are womanly enough, regardless of their beliefs, is blatant transphobia. This is just projecting reasoning onto me that I've never espoused. I never made the claim it's because I "don't believe they are womanly enough". The reason is that certain people have a biological advantage that others do not. The name "women's sports" is somewhat unfortunate because the goal is not to separate women from men, but actually to separate the people with that advantage from those who without. > And the long pseudo-science "not men but kinda men" justification is the sort of thing bigots tried to deploy against gays, religious minorities and women in the past. Again, this is refuting a point I never made. Trans men are men with a bio woman body, and vice versa for trans women. That isn't pseudo-science, it's the literal dictionary definition of what a trans person is.

roenxi 6y ago

It is patently absurd to argue that you can accept someone as a woman and not accept it is obvious that they are feminine enough to compete in women's sports. I don't think I'm the one getting tripped up here. That is just a lot of pretend complexity to justify transphobic beliefs. It just being "facts" that determine your personal social beliefs is exactly the same sort of scientific appeal to justify bigotry that inclusive movements have been fighting for a generation. If you believe someone's genitals determine how they should be treated socially, you are being transphobic. I personally think that is a stupid standard, but that is the standard that has been set for transphobia.

cmeacham98 6y ago
> If you believe someone's genitals determine how they should be treated socially, you are being transphobic. I personally think that is a stupid standard, but that is the standard that has been set for transphobia. I cannot tell if you're trolling or just intentionally ignoring all the related nuance. You must understand there are some circumstances when it is acceptable to acknowledge that a trans women has a bio male body. According to this "trans women should always be treated as women in ANY context" opinion what is a doctor to do when a trans women gets prostate cancer? "Sorry, that's a man-only disease, and you're a woman, so it's impossible you have it"???
- roenxi 6y ago
  I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out the obvious - you are espousing mildly transphobic principles and you should reassess your framework until it makes sense. Someone with a prostate having prostate cancer and needing treatment has an obvious, involuntary, cause and the person is presumably voluntarily cooperative in being treated. Thinking that it is even possibly reasonable to exclude a woman from playing womans sport because you don't believe they are womanly enough, regardless of their beliefs, is blatant transphobia. And the long pseudo-science "not men but kinda men" justification is the sort of thing bigots tried to deploy against gays, religious minorities and women in the past. That should stop. If someone is a women, and we can treat them like women, we should treat them like a woman. Ditto how humans should be treated like humans.
  - cmeacham98 6y ago
    Come on, I can easily construct a scenario where it isn't voluntary from the trans woman and is between two people, as a matter of fact I already did: > What about a situation where a cisgendered man prefers having sex with people that also have dicks? Typically, we would call this person gay, which we interpret as "men who have sex with men". However, this person would want to have sex with cis men and trans women, not because they're transphobic, but because their preference is based on the person's physical body. What are you going to say when this person declines sex with a trans women? Is that transphobia? Should they be forced to lie about why they're declining the sex? Is wanting to have sex with people with the same genitalia as you transphobic? > Thinking that it is even possibly reasonable to exclude a woman from playing womans sport because you don't believe they are womanly enough, regardless of their beliefs, is blatant transphobia. This is just projecting reasoning onto me that I've never espoused. I never made the claim it's because I "don't believe they are womanly enough". The reason is that certain people have a biological advantage that others do not. The name "women's sports" is somewhat unfortunate because the goal is not to separate women from men, but actually to separate the people with that advantage from those who without. > And the long pseudo-science "not men but kinda men" justification is the sort of thing bigots tried to deploy against gays, religious minorities and women in the past. Again, this is refuting a point I never made. Trans men are men with a bio woman body, and vice versa for trans women. That isn't pseudo-science, it's the literal dictionary definition of what a trans person is.