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> but it's the anti-feature > again, all anti features. Ah yes. "Anti-features" like protecting your money. It's easy to "refute" the point and call the auth

> but it's the anti-feature > again, all anti features. Ah yes. "Anti-features" like protecting your money. It's easy to "refute" the point and call the author "clueless" if you just call anything useful an anti-feature. > this also shows how clueless you yourself are in anything bitcoin related. and immediately: > And yeah, fees today are higher than fees last year So you're just confirming the point tht the author said and my update to his numbers. > micropayments were never supposed to be on chain to begin with. That's some interesting mental gymnastics. So, according to you, bitcoin is not a worthless payment system, but at the same time you're claiming that it's not supposed to handle the largest chunk of what payment systems routinely handle. I guess, micropayments are an anti-feature, too?

keymone 6y ago
> Ah yes. "Anti-features" like protecting your money. they aren't protecting your money, they are protecting the financial system in which you're currently being fucked but it happens so slowly that you've fooled yourself into enjoying it. > It's easy to "refute" the point and call the author "clueless" if you just call anything useful an anti-feature. how can you not? bitcoin has transaction finality by design. that's the purpose of bitcoin. that's one of the core features. when somebody comes criticizing bitcoin for not having an opposite anti-feature - what are they if not clueless? > > And yeah, fees today are higher than fees last year quoting out of context should be bannable offence. also you're just displaying your own ignorance and inability to understand a trivial thing - fees in bitcoin denominated in bitcoin didn't change, price of bitcoin change. > So, according to you, bitcoin is not a worthless payment system, but at the same time you're claiming that it's not supposed to handle the largest chunk of what payment systems routinely handle nah, you just didn't understand words. i'll break it down: bitcoin is a system with limited on-chain settlement capacity due to reasons. this means that lower value settlements will get priced out by higher value settlements because higher value settlements can afford to include larger fee. on top of this system one can in context of single on-chain settlement execute billions microtransactions with micro-fees that in aggregate make the onchain settlement economically viable. so bitcoin is very much capable of handling unlimited number of transactions per second, you just don't understand how it achieves that. your understanding is on the level of "so your shipping containers with motors attached cant even cross the atlantic ? what's the points in that?", missing entirely the idea of container ships.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  > they aren't protecting your money, they are protecting the financial system Ah, yes. Let's imagine a real-world scenario: I pay for some goods. The seller never delivers the goods. Real world: I have an arsenal of tools at my disposal that can help me return my money. keymone and bitcoin: no, it's an anti-feature, these tools only protect the financial system. > how can you not? bitcoin has transaction finality by design. Please say "finality of transaction by design" a few more times. This will surely address the issues raised. > fees in bitcoin denominated in bitcoin didn't change, price of bitcoin change. and immediately below: > lower value settlements will get priced out by higher value settlements because higher value settlements can afford to include larger fee. So chose one, please. The fees didn't change? Or they change all the time, and you have to pay for the "privilege" of sending money? > so bitcoin is very much capable of handling unlimited number of transactions per second, you just don't understand how it achieves that. I mean, you can call 0 an infinity and even do maths around that. However, there's an actual tangible reality: actual real-world transaction times in bitcoin are 10 to 30 minutes. Your "infinite transactions per second" don't work if I pay for something and have to wait for 30 minutes for the transfer to settle. > on top of this system one can in context of single on-chain settlement execute billions microtransactions with micro-fees that in aggregate make the onchain settlement economically viable. Ah, yes. The mythical systems that are yet to materialize anywhere. And, by the way, if you're creating a separate system to aggregate multiple transactions, that's ... centralisation. Something that bitcoin is supposed to be against. > missing entirely the idea of container ships. So far you've addressed zero of the issues raised besides payments. And with the issues about payments you've demonstrated next to zero understanding of what people realistically want from a payment system. Oh, and you've devolved to calling white black and vice versa ("10 to 30 minutes per transaction is actually unlimited transactions per second").
  - keymone 6y ago
    It’s like you’re trying to misunderstand and not understand on purpose... Bitcoin has finality and on top of bitcoin you can build the arsenal of tools. Lower value transfers got priced out because fees that previously were low in dollar terms have become high in dollar terms because Bitcoin was previously $1 and now it’s $50,000. Payments in payment channel are settled as fast as your internet latency because they don’t need to be settled on chain, that’s what payment channels do. Payments inside payment channels are not constrained by anything but you system IO, and there are lots of payment channels acting independently, so for all intents and purposes transaction capacity in bitcoin payment channels is infinite. Payment channel systems are already built and they don’t require centralization. You obviously know next to nothing yet you keep arguing trying to pretend to be smart and knowledgeable.

keymone 6y ago

> Ah yes. "Anti-features" like protecting your money. they aren't protecting your money, they are protecting the financial system in which you're currently being fucked but it happens so slowly that you've fooled yourself into enjoying it. > It's easy to "refute" the point and call the author "clueless" if you just call anything useful an anti-feature. how can you not? bitcoin has transaction finality by design. that's the purpose of bitcoin. that's one of the core features. when somebody comes criticizing bitcoin for not having an opposite anti-feature - what are they if not clueless? > > And yeah, fees today are higher than fees last year quoting out of context should be bannable offence. also you're just displaying your own ignorance and inability to understand a trivial thing - fees in bitcoin denominated in bitcoin didn't change, price of bitcoin change. > So, according to you, bitcoin is not a worthless payment system, but at the same time you're claiming that it's not supposed to handle the largest chunk of what payment systems routinely handle nah, you just didn't understand words. i'll break it down: bitcoin is a system with limited on-chain settlement capacity due to reasons. this means that lower value settlements will get priced out by higher value settlements because higher value settlements can afford to include larger fee. on top of this system one can in context of single on-chain settlement execute billions microtransactions with micro-fees that in aggregate make the onchain settlement economically viable. so bitcoin is very much capable of handling unlimited number of transactions per second, you just don't understand how it achieves that. your understanding is on the level of "so your shipping containers with motors attached cant even cross the atlantic ? what's the points in that?", missing entirely the idea of container ships.

dmitriid 6y ago
> they aren't protecting your money, they are protecting the financial system Ah, yes. Let's imagine a real-world scenario: I pay for some goods. The seller never delivers the goods. Real world: I have an arsenal of tools at my disposal that can help me return my money. keymone and bitcoin: no, it's an anti-feature, these tools only protect the financial system. > how can you not? bitcoin has transaction finality by design. Please say "finality of transaction by design" a few more times. This will surely address the issues raised. > fees in bitcoin denominated in bitcoin didn't change, price of bitcoin change. and immediately below: > lower value settlements will get priced out by higher value settlements because higher value settlements can afford to include larger fee. So chose one, please. The fees didn't change? Or they change all the time, and you have to pay for the "privilege" of sending money? > so bitcoin is very much capable of handling unlimited number of transactions per second, you just don't understand how it achieves that. I mean, you can call 0 an infinity and even do maths around that. However, there's an actual tangible reality: actual real-world transaction times in bitcoin are 10 to 30 minutes. Your "infinite transactions per second" don't work if I pay for something and have to wait for 30 minutes for the transfer to settle. > on top of this system one can in context of single on-chain settlement execute billions microtransactions with micro-fees that in aggregate make the onchain settlement economically viable. Ah, yes. The mythical systems that are yet to materialize anywhere. And, by the way, if you're creating a separate system to aggregate multiple transactions, that's ... centralisation. Something that bitcoin is supposed to be against. > missing entirely the idea of container ships. So far you've addressed zero of the issues raised besides payments. And with the issues about payments you've demonstrated next to zero understanding of what people realistically want from a payment system. Oh, and you've devolved to calling white black and vice versa ("10 to 30 minutes per transaction is actually unlimited transactions per second").
- keymone 6y ago
  It’s like you’re trying to misunderstand and not understand on purpose... Bitcoin has finality and on top of bitcoin you can build the arsenal of tools. Lower value transfers got priced out because fees that previously were low in dollar terms have become high in dollar terms because Bitcoin was previously $1 and now it’s $50,000. Payments in payment channel are settled as fast as your internet latency because they don’t need to be settled on chain, that’s what payment channels do. Payments inside payment channels are not constrained by anything but you system IO, and there are lots of payment channels acting independently, so for all intents and purposes transaction capacity in bitcoin payment channels is infinite. Payment channel systems are already built and they don’t require centralization. You obviously know next to nothing yet you keep arguing trying to pretend to be smart and knowledgeable.