4 ms·

We are talking about body, not mind. Transgender women are women with a biological man body (otherwise we wouldn’t have this conversation.) So it is unfair for

by nomdep 6y ago

We are talking about body, not mind. Transgender women are women with a biological man body (otherwise we wouldn’t have this conversation.) So it is unfair for women with biological women body. The whole point of separating biological women of biological men in sports is to prevent that.

roenxi 6y ago
It is sport. The strong/fit win and the weak lose. It was never meant to be fair with respect to physical ability. If we start from the premise that it is transphobic to say "Transgender women should not be in women's sports because they are men." then it is pretty clear that "Transgender women should not be in women's sports because they are biological men." is also transphobic. Otherwise we could end online transphobia with a couple of sed scripts in a chrome extension.
- cmeacham98 6y ago
  I think perhaps you're getting tripped up by the English language, which is understandable because it's annoyingly vague in this context. The words male/female can refer to either gender or biological sex. Gender means what you likely already think it does. Biological sex is what genitalia someone has (or more generally for animals as a whole whether you produce sperm or eggs). I'm not a huge fan of this term because it kinda seems to imply transgenderism is "non-biological" but it's the most commonly understood term so I use it begrudgingly. "Trans women are men" is most obviously interpreted as a transphobic statement about gender. "Trans women are biological men" is just a fact and is in no way transphobic. > Otherwise we could end online transphobia with a couple of sed scripts in a chrome extension. Words have meaning outside of analyzing their dictionary definitions or a single sentence at a time. Sed scripts cannot account for context, intent, etc. Similarly, whether or not some speech is transphobic is dependent on these factors too.
  - roenxi 6y ago
    It is patently absurd to argue that you can accept someone as a woman and not accept it is obvious that they are feminine enough to compete in women's sports. I don't think I'm the one getting tripped up here. That is just a lot of pretend complexity to justify transphobic beliefs. It just being "facts" that determine your personal social beliefs is exactly the same sort of scientific appeal to justify bigotry that inclusive movements have been fighting for a generation. If you believe someone's genitals determine how they should be treated socially, you are being transphobic. I personally think that is a stupid standard, but that is the standard that has been set for transphobia.
    - cmeacham98 6y ago
      > If you believe someone's genitals determine how they should be treated socially, you are being transphobic. I personally think that is a stupid standard, but that is the standard that has been set for transphobia. I cannot tell if you're trolling or just intentionally ignoring all the related nuance. You must understand there are some circumstances when it is acceptable to acknowledge that a trans women has a bio male body. According to this "trans women should always be treated as women in ANY context" opinion what is a doctor to do when a trans women gets prostate cancer? "Sorry, that's a man-only disease, and you're a woman, so it's impossible you have it"???
      - roenxi 6y ago
        I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out the obvious - you are espousing mildly transphobic principles and you should reassess your framework until it makes sense. Someone with a prostate having prostate cancer and needing treatment has an obvious, involuntary, cause and the person is presumably voluntarily cooperative in being treated. Thinking that it is even possibly reasonable to exclude a woman from playing womans sport because you don't believe they are womanly enough, regardless of their beliefs, is blatant transphobia. And the long pseudo-science "not men but kinda men" justification is the sort of thing bigots tried to deploy against gays, religious minorities and women in the past. That should stop. If someone is a women, and we can treat them like women, we should treat them like a woman. Ditto how humans should be treated like humans.

by nomdep 6y ago

roenxi 6y ago

It is sport. The strong/fit win and the weak lose. It was never meant to be fair with respect to physical ability. If we start from the premise that it is transphobic to say "Transgender women should not be in women's sports because they are men." then it is pretty clear that "Transgender women should not be in women's sports because they are biological men." is also transphobic. Otherwise we could end online transphobia with a couple of sed scripts in a chrome extension.

cmeacham98 6y ago
I think perhaps you're getting tripped up by the English language, which is understandable because it's annoyingly vague in this context. The words male/female can refer to either gender or biological sex. Gender means what you likely already think it does. Biological sex is what genitalia someone has (or more generally for animals as a whole whether you produce sperm or eggs). I'm not a huge fan of this term because it kinda seems to imply transgenderism is "non-biological" but it's the most commonly understood term so I use it begrudgingly. "Trans women are men" is most obviously interpreted as a transphobic statement about gender. "Trans women are biological men" is just a fact and is in no way transphobic. > Otherwise we could end online transphobia with a couple of sed scripts in a chrome extension. Words have meaning outside of analyzing their dictionary definitions or a single sentence at a time. Sed scripts cannot account for context, intent, etc. Similarly, whether or not some speech is transphobic is dependent on these factors too.
- roenxi 6y ago
  It is patently absurd to argue that you can accept someone as a woman and not accept it is obvious that they are feminine enough to compete in women's sports. I don't think I'm the one getting tripped up here. That is just a lot of pretend complexity to justify transphobic beliefs. It just being "facts" that determine your personal social beliefs is exactly the same sort of scientific appeal to justify bigotry that inclusive movements have been fighting for a generation. If you believe someone's genitals determine how they should be treated socially, you are being transphobic. I personally think that is a stupid standard, but that is the standard that has been set for transphobia.
  - cmeacham98 6y ago
    > If you believe someone's genitals determine how they should be treated socially, you are being transphobic. I personally think that is a stupid standard, but that is the standard that has been set for transphobia. I cannot tell if you're trolling or just intentionally ignoring all the related nuance. You must understand there are some circumstances when it is acceptable to acknowledge that a trans women has a bio male body. According to this "trans women should always be treated as women in ANY context" opinion what is a doctor to do when a trans women gets prostate cancer? "Sorry, that's a man-only disease, and you're a woman, so it's impossible you have it"???
    - roenxi 6y ago
      I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out the obvious - you are espousing mildly transphobic principles and you should reassess your framework until it makes sense. Someone with a prostate having prostate cancer and needing treatment has an obvious, involuntary, cause and the person is presumably voluntarily cooperative in being treated. Thinking that it is even possibly reasonable to exclude a woman from playing womans sport because you don't believe they are womanly enough, regardless of their beliefs, is blatant transphobia. And the long pseudo-science "not men but kinda men" justification is the sort of thing bigots tried to deploy against gays, religious minorities and women in the past. That should stop. If someone is a women, and we can treat them like women, we should treat them like a woman. Ditto how humans should be treated like humans.