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i disagree wholeheartedly in that it is more cooperative. Switzerland is anything but cooperative. But that's what makes this country so great. We take our di

i disagree wholeheartedly in that it is more cooperative. Switzerland is anything but cooperative. But that's what makes this country so great. We take our divisions, within cantons, and leverage them for positive externalities to (accidentally) benefit the greater good. In CH, every very canton sets their own citizenship policy. Its not a coincidence. Did you hear about the woman that's been living in Zug, and been denied citizenship for years? Why? Because she's annoying. She doesn't respect her neighbor's customs. That's literally why. Yes! Our canton can't even agree between about who can be a citizen, and who may not! But we argue far more... and it won't make the papers. We argue about the standard size of doors, whether we can vote electronically, whether a free trade agreement with andorra should be allowed. Etc etc This means, big project ambitions get cut down to size, and few grand things if any, get done at the federal level. But this is glorious: it is very hard for regulations to become calcified within the state apparatus. So, while spain sends soldiers to die in Afghanistan, or the UK wastes decades of development on a grand EU project, or US citizens get spied on by their own govt via Patriot Act.... CH is just sitting pretty, doing its thing. Arguing about every little detail to exhaustion. The best thing that could happen to us, is to remain just as we are. I welcome the next 800 years of peace and economic development.

xiphias2 6y ago
One important thing that was not argued well in my opinion is that the Swiss National Bank pegged its Swiss franc to the euro on Sept. 6, 2011. I lost a lot of money on that day, because I had all my net worth in CHF, as I trusted it to keep its value and not be devalued fast. The good thing that came out from it is that I realized that even Switzerland's central bank cannot be trusted, and moved to Bitcoin. I never looked back.
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  The tiny swiss were the last to delink its currency to gold. They tried really hard, under enormous pressure, but finally relented in 2000 with the new constitution, where the delink was tied to a bunch of other constitutional directives.. So in summary - The country can only do so much before the big guns aimed at it take their pound of flesh. I am not sure the central bank is faultless in the example you cite, however, appreciate that we live in a world where other powerful people are not interested in the well being of swiss banking customers.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    I understand the pressure that Switzerland was in, and I don’t really care as I got back the money I lost on that day by many times. At the same time I was used to the trains and trams being precise by the second in Zurich (I loved taking the train to work every day), and everything being predictable, that’s why it was a wake-up call for me.
- tim333 6y ago
  The central bank's priority is probably stability and the well being of Swiss people using SFR for wages and mortgages rather than maximising the profits of currency speculators. If you want the latter then indeed bitcoin is no doubt a better match.
- herbst 6y ago
  I too still dont really understand why they did that. I mean sure i get it, but it seems so counter intuitive especially now where we can expect the usd and eur to devalue even more
Bayart 6y ago
>So, while spain sends soldiers to die in Afghanistan, or the UK wastes decades of development on a grand EU project, or US citizens get spied on by their own govt via Patriot Act.... CH is just sitting pretty, doing its thing. Arguing about every little detail to exhaustion. Switzerland can afford to do this because it's surrounded by countries that protect it from the real world. It doesn't have a real foreign policy because it doesn't have to. >The best thing that could happen to us, is to remain just as we are. I welcome the next 800 years of peace and economic development. That's not up to you. As I've said earlier, you're lucky to be surrounded by countries with bigger fish to fry as long as Switzerland toes the line.
- apexalpha 6y ago
  Switzerland used to be surrounded by Nazi Germany on pretty much all sides. They remain independent because they are a mountainous country that set its defenses up cleverly so that any invasion would be a pyrrhic victory at best.
  - wegwerfbenutzer 6y ago
    That is a myth. These defenses you talk about were built partly with cheap material and therefore significantly less effective. This caused a major post-war corruption scandal. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, because Switzerland was actually more useful as a neutral state for Nazi Germany to exchange gold for commodities, for spying and Switzerland produced militiary equipment for Nazi Germany anyway.
    - tim333 6y ago
      Switzerland has also had a policy of armed neutrality since 1815 or before I think and the armed bit would probably be a headache for anyone invading.
      - lolc 6y ago
        The Nazis did plan an invasion. See Operation Tannenbaum[0]. Switzerland didn't end up getting divided between Germany and Italy thanks to the Red Army hurtling more humans west than the Wehrmacht could supply bullets east. Swiss munitions production wouldn't be risked. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum
nathias 6y ago
This reminds me of how elephants don't suffer from cancer, because of their size their tumors get tumors and die off before doing damage to the animal. The best bureaucracy is not an efficient one, but one so inefficient that it can't do harm.
mFixman 6y ago
> This means, big project ambitions get cut down to size, and few grand things if any, get done at the federal level. But this is glorious: it is very hard for regulations to become calcified within the state apparatus. And yet, Switzerland's nationalised train network is one of the most extensive and effective in the world. How did that happen?
- wuschel 6y ago
  I will bite, although this moves away from the news that Switzerland votes against the electronic ID system. > How did that happen? Two hypothesis: a) The railroad net in Switzerland is fairly small when compared to Germany. b) The numbers in the punctuality statistics are skewed. For example, once a train from Germany is late and wants to cross the border to Switzerland (e.g. Freiburg-Basel crossing), it is put on hold and has to wait until it falls into the next swiss train slot, entering Switzerland "on time". In Germany, this would be counted as a delay. Source: Lived in Switzerland for a while.
- tim333 6y ago
  The rail network was mostly built by private enterprise prior to 1898 when it was nationalised and has been run in a pretty conservative way since. >While European rail operators such as French SNCF and Spanish Renfe have emphasised the building of high-speed rail, SBB has invested in the reliability and quality of service of its conventional rail network. As a Brit I'd probably prefer that to £100bn on HS2 and god knows what on the proposed Boris Burrow.

xiphias2 6y ago

One important thing that was not argued well in my opinion is that the Swiss National Bank pegged its Swiss franc to the euro on Sept. 6, 2011. I lost a lot of money on that day, because I had all my net worth in CHF, as I trusted it to keep its value and not be devalued fast. The good thing that came out from it is that I realized that even Switzerland's central bank cannot be trusted, and moved to Bitcoin. I never looked back.

IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
The tiny swiss were the last to delink its currency to gold. They tried really hard, under enormous pressure, but finally relented in 2000 with the new constitution, where the delink was tied to a bunch of other constitutional directives.. So in summary - The country can only do so much before the big guns aimed at it take their pound of flesh. I am not sure the central bank is faultless in the example you cite, however, appreciate that we live in a world where other powerful people are not interested in the well being of swiss banking customers.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  I understand the pressure that Switzerland was in, and I don’t really care as I got back the money I lost on that day by many times. At the same time I was used to the trains and trams being precise by the second in Zurich (I loved taking the train to work every day), and everything being predictable, that’s why it was a wake-up call for me.
tim333 6y ago
The central bank's priority is probably stability and the well being of Swiss people using SFR for wages and mortgages rather than maximising the profits of currency speculators. If you want the latter then indeed bitcoin is no doubt a better match.
herbst 6y ago
I too still dont really understand why they did that. I mean sure i get it, but it seems so counter intuitive especially now where we can expect the usd and eur to devalue even more

Bayart 6y ago

>So, while spain sends soldiers to die in Afghanistan, or the UK wastes decades of development on a grand EU project, or US citizens get spied on by their own govt via Patriot Act.... CH is just sitting pretty, doing its thing. Arguing about every little detail to exhaustion. Switzerland can afford to do this because it's surrounded by countries that protect it from the real world. It doesn't have a real foreign policy because it doesn't have to. >The best thing that could happen to us, is to remain just as we are. I welcome the next 800 years of peace and economic development. That's not up to you. As I've said earlier, you're lucky to be surrounded by countries with bigger fish to fry as long as Switzerland toes the line.

apexalpha 6y ago
Switzerland used to be surrounded by Nazi Germany on pretty much all sides. They remain independent because they are a mountainous country that set its defenses up cleverly so that any invasion would be a pyrrhic victory at best.
- wegwerfbenutzer 6y ago
  That is a myth. These defenses you talk about were built partly with cheap material and therefore significantly less effective. This caused a major post-war corruption scandal. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, because Switzerland was actually more useful as a neutral state for Nazi Germany to exchange gold for commodities, for spying and Switzerland produced militiary equipment for Nazi Germany anyway.
  - tim333 6y ago
    Switzerland has also had a policy of armed neutrality since 1815 or before I think and the armed bit would probably be a headache for anyone invading.
    - lolc 6y ago
      The Nazis did plan an invasion. See Operation Tannenbaum[0]. Switzerland didn't end up getting divided between Germany and Italy thanks to the Red Army hurtling more humans west than the Wehrmacht could supply bullets east. Swiss munitions production wouldn't be risked. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

nathias 6y ago

This reminds me of how elephants don't suffer from cancer, because of their size their tumors get tumors and die off before doing damage to the animal. The best bureaucracy is not an efficient one, but one so inefficient that it can't do harm.

mFixman 6y ago

> This means, big project ambitions get cut down to size, and few grand things if any, get done at the federal level. But this is glorious: it is very hard for regulations to become calcified within the state apparatus. And yet, Switzerland's nationalised train network is one of the most extensive and effective in the world. How did that happen?

wuschel 6y ago
I will bite, although this moves away from the news that Switzerland votes against the electronic ID system. > How did that happen? Two hypothesis: a) The railroad net in Switzerland is fairly small when compared to Germany. b) The numbers in the punctuality statistics are skewed. For example, once a train from Germany is late and wants to cross the border to Switzerland (e.g. Freiburg-Basel crossing), it is put on hold and has to wait until it falls into the next swiss train slot, entering Switzerland "on time". In Germany, this would be counted as a delay. Source: Lived in Switzerland for a while.
tim333 6y ago
The rail network was mostly built by private enterprise prior to 1898 when it was nationalised and has been run in a pretty conservative way since. >While European rail operators such as French SNCF and Spanish Renfe have emphasised the building of high-speed rail, SBB has invested in the reliability and quality of service of its conventional rail network. As a Brit I'd probably prefer that to £100bn on HS2 and god knows what on the proposed Boris Burrow.